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Old 05-15-2011, 09:15   #121
RussP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
And your point is? How much training and education that is required to learn to do any job is secondary to whether or not you have an aptitude for the job.

Plenty of people go through police standards and even get a job as a cop only to discover that out once they are on the street they don't have what it takes to do the job. And the same is true of engineers and mechanics. merely being trained to do something does not mean you are going to be any good at it.
And some choose to stay and play, doing a mediocre job just under the radar, others leave voluntarily, others are encouraged to change jobs, others are forced to.

Okay, lets get off this path and back to the original topic, "What's the RAS for stopping someone carrying".
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Last edited by RussP; 05-15-2011 at 09:16..
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Old 05-15-2011, 09:29   #122
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Simple they do have something in the game, usually a chip on their shoulder about cops, but usually the actual root of the problem is they despise authority of any kind and cops are simply the most visible representation of Govt. authority.

It is not hard to see, they like to drop into threads about cops and add absolutely NOTHING to the discussion other than to vent their spleen about cops.

Like toddlers in the terrible twos they hate being told NO.
I would say that there is the genernal anti-authority people. You may even say I fit into that (but you would be wrong).

In general, I am not anti-authority, but anti a broken justice system.

For example, in another thread about 5 people being cited for OC, the general consensus was that there were “no damages” because charges were dropped. In another thread about not having a right to resist unlawful entry, the justices said that the basic premise is out dated because people have redress and bail. Keep in mind these are short summaries.

However, if a person is innocent (I make this a very big distinction) such as the guy who were cited for OC or people who have had SWAT teams break down the wrong door because of an incorrect address, they really don’t have redress. A SWAT team breaking down your door in the middle of the night can cause severe damage that is not necessarily easy to measure monetarily. Being charged, causes damage to people. There is the expenses of hiring attorneys, the court appearances, stress involved with the situation. In general, when someone innocent in wrongfully arrested/charged their lives are turned upside down until the ordeal is over. Some people it takes a long time to end.

For example this guy who is very near me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggy_Hettrick_murder_case

He spent 10 years in prison for something he didn’t do. At the end, he has won a large civil lawsuit and the following has happened. “On June 30, 2010, a Larimer County Grand Jury indicted Lt. James Broderick on eight counts of felony first degree perjury for false material statements he made related to the arrest and conviction of Masters”

That detective, if found guilty, will likely face a couple years in jail. Really, he should spend every day in prison that the other guy did.

In general, it is very easy for people that are part “of the system” to say “no-harm-no-foul” we let you out. But, realistically, any arrest/charges for which a person is innocent disrupts their lives and can have serious economic consequences. Unlike police, most jobs do not pay you for time taken to resolve a legal issue. You can tell your employer that you need weeks off for a trial but after about 3 days, you are out of a job. It is not a no-harm-no-foul game. LEO, prosecutors, and the others that are part of the justice system are playing with peoples lives. The split-second, “reasonable-cop” standard can have lasting impacts on people lives.

I also believe the justice system is broken in that it is very one-sided. If I were charged with a crime, there is ample money to pay however many detectives, labs, etc are need to produce evidence against me. Essentially there are unlimited funds to go after me. However, my defense is based upon what I can afford. Lawyers are typically $250+ an hour. Labs tests are similarly priced. My mother was involved in a legal dispute (executor of an estate), and legal fees quickly piled up to a quarter million. How many people have an extra $250K (or $25k) laying around to keep themselves out of prison. Add to that that once they are charged, they may lose their jobs.

The other end of LEO that I see all the time is the speed traps on the highway. There is a section in the north end of town, where the speed limit is 65. About once a week, there is an officer standing on an overpass with a lidar/radar gun. Down just a little ways is 10-15 cop cars/motorcycles. They are pulling people over left and right. People see the police and slam on brake. People are pulling out into traffic after being stopped. Police are pulling chasing people. People and police are slowing down and moving across traffic for the traffic stop. Last time I drove through there with the speed trap, there was rear end collision on the side. The police in this section of the highway are creating much more danger than the person driving 70 or 75. The LEO are being used as revenue collection devices. What I blame the LEO for is not standing up and saying they are creating an unsafe situation (people slamming on brake on a highway is not safe) and refusing to do it. To copy a signature line..wrong is wrong even if everyone else is doing it.

LEO also think they should get a pass for split second decisions. Maybe they break the law (assault) but that is what a “reasonable officer” would do. Well, in general, there are many people in prison that basically are (were) good people that made a bad decision in a hurry based upon their situation. It seems that the justice system does not recognize this.

So, as you see, its not LEO that I have an issue with. It is how the “justice system” works and the general “no-harm-no-foul” attitude of the those involved with the system. Of course the hard part is balancing innocence with justice for the real criminals. But one guiding principle that this country was founded on is that it is better to let a guilty person go free than imprison an innocent person. This principle was for very good reason as there was an elite class that basically, imprisoned who they liked for what-ever they liked . I fear the balance is shifting back to imprisoning everyone. Why does the USA have the highest per-capita incarceration rate?

-Dana
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:31   #123
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Deleted, just saw the moderators post.
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:40   #124
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The notion of why people would be inclined to carp and second-guess what a cop does vs. what a neurosurgeon does has a lot more to do with the good ol' American habit of reserving their right to give government officials unbridled hell. The cop is the 24/7/365 representative of the .gov, and the most visible manifestation thereoff.

If all neurosurgeons were public employees, and thus a perennial symbol of what everyone dislikes in our often-bungling, politically screwed-up government system, they'd be catching a lot more grief and a lot less worship. One supposes that will come soon enough when the neurosurgeons are dumbed down enough to stay in the Obamacare medical system.
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:58   #125
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Okay, lets get off this path and back to the original topic, "What's the RAS for stopping someone carrying".
Articuable facts and reasonable inferences which, based on the totality of the circumstances, would lead one to believe that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed.

No percentage likelihood has ever been assigned. However, the "preponderance of the evidence" is 50.1%. Probably cause is lower than that, lower than 50-50 Reasonable suspicion is lower still.

In the OP: an area suffering a rash of car busts, commonly found at night. A non-resident in the area with items in his car such as are frequently stolen in car busts. A time of day where no business is open, the vast majority of people are asleep and he does not provide an explanation. He's armed. Yes, Virginia, there is RS.

Of course there may be innocent explanations, just as Mr. Terry could have ended up being an indecisive window-shopper. Doesn't matter.

And of course you can listen to any lawyer, who will tell you not to talk. And your night will get longer as we do the work ourselves, guided by our own suspicious nature looking to see if there's a case instead of your input in your best interests. It really is a free country, though. That includes the freedom to make less than optimal choices and live with the consequences.

Now let me broaden the discussion: imagine a man carrying a rifle in his hands, approaching a mall during business hours. Working off the definition, can anyone *not* see RS to stop him and investigate? Bonus: Any time the government has the authority to do something, they have the authority to use reasonable force (as determined by the model "reasonable officer" NOT the more generic "reasonable man") to make it happen. Would such a stop/detention/investigation justify the threatened use of firearms by LE? Why or why not?
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Old 05-15-2011, 11:19   #126
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....to piggyback on what Sam said.

REASONABLE SUSPICION


Perhaps this may make it easier to understand.

Instead of a "Reasonable Suspicion" to contact a suspect, substitute: "Articulable Basis".

The Officer must be able to explain to the court (if challenged) an "Articulable Basis" for his actions.

What you've read in prior posts someone outlining the "Reasonable Suspicion" for a contact, is outlining the "Articulable Basis" that is/was valid for that "specific contact" at that "specific time".

Sincerely,

TBO
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 05-15-2011, 14:10   #127
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Quote:
Now let me broaden the discussion: imagine a man carrying a rifle in his hands, approaching a mall during business hours. Working off the definition, can anyone *not* see RS to stop him and investigate? Bonus: Any time the government has the authority to do something, they have the authority to use reasonable force (as determined by the model "reasonable officer" NOT the more generic "reasonable man") to make it happen. Would such a stop/detention/investigation justify the threatened use of firearms by LE? Why or why not?
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Rifle in hands? or low ready yes RAS exists, and the manner of carry also justifies a stop at gunpoint.

If the rifle were slung over the shoulder I would be less likely to say stop at gunpoint.
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Old 05-15-2011, 15:00   #128
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Rifle in hands? or low ready yes RAS exists, and the manner of carry also justifies a stop at gunpoint.

If the rifle were slung over the shoulder I would be less likely to say stop at gunpoint.
Would this give you RAS?

Carry Issues


Last edited by holesinpaper; 05-15-2011 at 15:06..
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Old 05-15-2011, 15:06   #129
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OMG, cops and OCers CAN get along.

Carry Issues

When exercising rights becomes normalized, we all win.
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Old 05-15-2011, 15:12   #130
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Would this give you RAS?

Carry Issues

Yes that the Beverly Hillbillies had taken over the governors office.

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Old 05-15-2011, 15:13   #131
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I call shenanigans on Swatbana's original scenario.

In the most populous county in my state, the Sheriff declared:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ffcuts19m.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheriff Sue Rahr
there will no longer be deputies to investigate burglaries, car prowls, auto theft and fraud
So if the sheriff dictates that car prowls and burglaries not be investigated, then there would be no reason to ask questions about a GPS or Laptop at 0' dark thirty.

Of course, your state, county and/or city might be different.

Carry Issues
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Old 05-15-2011, 15:14   #132
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OMG, cops and OCers CAN get along.

Carry Issues

When exercising rights becomes normalized, we all win.
I call fake, if that were real his hands would be handcuffed behind him.
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Old 05-15-2011, 15:26   #133
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Yes that the Beverly Hillbillies had taken over the governors office.

Yeah, um... we don't really have "hillbillies' around here. And we're a loooong way from Beverly Hills.

The best we can do is "logger types."

Carry Issues

Yes, it was a special "tour your state capital with guns" holiday.
Carry Issues

Carry Issues

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Old 05-15-2011, 16:28   #134
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Yeah, um... we don't really have "hillbillies' around here. And we're a loooong way from Beverly Hills.

The best we can do is "logger types."

Carry Issues
Good candidate for smartcarry.

Randy
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Old 05-15-2011, 18:41   #135
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Yeah, um... we don't really have "hillbillies' around here. And we're a loooong way from Beverly Hills.

The best we can do is "logger types."

Carry Issues
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL7n5mEmXJo
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Old 05-15-2011, 19:16   #136
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There is RAS in all those pictures....

Those people dress in such poor taste that any cop RAS to contact them when OC.

-Dana
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:37   #137
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OK. I'm not in LE. I find this thread interesting. But I don't have a clue what RAS is. Could someone please enlighten me?

Thanks!
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Old 09-09-2011, 16:24   #138
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OK. I'm not in LE. I find this thread interesting. But I don't have a clue what RAS is. Could someone please enlighten me?

Thanks!
Page 5:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Articuable facts and reasonable inferences which, based on the totality of the circumstances, would lead one to believe that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed.

No percentage likelihood has ever been assigned. However, the "preponderance of the evidence" is 50.1%. Probably cause is lower than that, lower than 50-50 Reasonable suspicion is lower still.

In the OP: an area suffering a rash of car busts, commonly found at night. A non-resident in the area with items in his car such as are frequently stolen in car busts. A time of day where no business is open, the vast majority of people are asleep and he does not provide an explanation. He's armed. Yes, Virginia, there is RS.

Of course there may be innocent explanations, just as Mr. Terry could have ended up being an indecisive window-shopper. Doesn't matter.
See also http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=994145 , Post 2.
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:51   #139
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Thanks, Sam!
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