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Old 05-14-2011, 19:02   #101
kensteele
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
The bad guys at least understand how the real world works. And they know in a situation like the one given "Am I being detained", isn't going to get them anywhere.
Agreed. Would you also agree that "am i being detained" almost always works for the good guy; gets off (eventually) the innocent guy who hasn't done anything wrong?

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Old 05-14-2011, 19:26   #102
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The bad guys at least understand how the real world works. And they know in a situation like the one given "Am I being detained", isn't going to get them anywhere.

They know better than to try and play jail house lawyer on the street. they reserve that for when they are locked up and have lots of free time and are bored.
And that's why it's usually best to simply opt to remain silent, if one is detained and questioned by the police.

Saves the cops time, and saves the 'suspects' breath.

A good attorney would give his client this advice absolutely every single effing time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
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Old 05-14-2011, 20:28   #103
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Nope. The jurors will still determine if there is a crime, they do not judge the LE activity itself. .
Unless the LE activity is the subject of the court procedings and/or LE activity/procedures are being used as an affimative defense..

Don't know where you get that. The general public is rarely taught the law. Jurors are offered evidence and told how to look at that evidence for one narrow purpose.

Sorry, but strawmen do not make good arguments. Surgery is a skill, and different surgeries need different levels of skill, so there is not a single standard. Jurors are not trained on how to interpret the law, jurors are asked to decide if a person is guilty based on evidence provided to them.[/QUOTE]

The strawman argument was introduced in post 39 when the concept of laymen comparing LEO to neurosurgeons.

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Old 05-14-2011, 20:33   #104
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
The bad guys at least understand how the real world works. And they know in a situation like the one given "Am I being detained", isn't going to get them anywhere.

They know better than to try and play jail house lawyer on the street. they reserve that for when they are locked up and have lots of free time and are bored.

So let me see if I understand what you are saying. Please correct me if I am mis-understanding you.

1) The typical GT person does not have experience as LEO and hasn't experienced that side of LE.
2) The typical GT person doesn't understand how being arrested/detained works because they don't have enough experience on that side of the law.

Am I understanding this correctly?

-Dana
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Old 05-14-2011, 20:39   #105
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Unless the LE activity is the subject of the court procedings and/or LE activity/procedures are being used as an affimative defense..
Sorry, doesn't work that way. The validity of the activity is not decided by the jury, the jury will decide if the officer performed the activity according to legal standards. The jury doesn't get to decide what the standards are.
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The strawman argument was introduced in post 39 when the concept of laymen comparing LEO to neurosurgeons. -Dana
If you agree it is a strawman argument then you make the point for me that the way you are using it is not valid. The issue of having some understanding of what you are talking about when discussing things is not the strawman, the strawman is trying to compare the jobs themselves instead of the understanding of the jobs.

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Old 05-14-2011, 20:51   #106
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So let me see if I understand what you are saying. Please correct me if I am mis-understanding you.

1) The typical GT person does not have experience as LEO and hasn't experienced that side of LE.
2) The typical GT person doesn't understand how being arrested/detained works because they don't have enough experience on that side of the law.

Am I understanding this correctly?

-Dana
Partially correct, but that is not all of it. the MAJORITY of GT posters fall into the category of 1 and 2 but also pretty much understand that fact. And while they may have an opinion or questions some things are at least open to information as to why their opinion may be wrong. or why things were done the way they were.

But then you have a very vocal MINORITY that also fall into the that category but adamantly refuse to believe they don't in fact know how police work is done and think that how THEY think it should be done or how they view things is absolutely correct. Even when they have absolutely no training or experience to base those opinions on.

You can find plenty of evidence of that in this thread alone.
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Old 05-14-2011, 20:58   #107
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[QUOTE=TheeBadOne;17344421]An excellent summation that all should pay attention too.

The courts get the final say in what a Statute says/means.

For example, here is my States' Disorderly Conduct law:

609.72 DISORDERLY CONDUCT.

Subdivision 1.Crime.

Whoever does any of the following in a public or private place, including on a school bus, knowing, or having reasonable grounds to know that it will, or will tend to, alarm, anger or disturb others or provoke an assault or breach of the peace, is guilty of disorderly conduct, which is a misdemeanor:

(1) engages in brawling or fighting; or
(2) disturbs an assembly or meeting, not unlawful in its character; or
(3) engages in offensive, obscene, abusive, boisterous, or noisy conduct or in offensive, obscene, or abusive language tending reasonably to arouse alarm, anger, or resentment in others.
[COLOR="Red"] A person does not violate this section if the person's disorderly conduct was caused by an epileptic seizure.

This struck me as funny does this mean someone get arrested for having a seizure?

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Old 05-14-2011, 21:06   #108
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What makes the educated engineers a better person to design the plane?

The answer of course, is training and experience.
You can't simply train/educate anyone to design a plane. Therefore it is more than just training and experience. This is the same argument is saying that with enough experience and training I could be a QB in the NFL. No matter how much experience and training you give me, it isn't happening.


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I would be willing to bet that if folks like DanaT were stuck on the side of the road with a vehicle that would not run they would rather have the high school dropout that is a trained and experienced mechanic stop to help than a professor of sociology with a PHD.

Well lets test your cognitive abilities here. Notice I did not say broken down, I said STUCK implying someone lacks the knowledge or tools to fix the problem. Whether that actually describes your actual knowledge or ability in car repair does not alter the point made.

I am not surprised you attempt to ignore the point by engaging in deflection.
Sorry. I forgot to repsond to this one.

Ok. So the given the situation that I am "stuck on the side of the road with a vehicle that won't run" and am waiting on the highschool dropout that is an experienced mechanic stop to help or the sociology PHD. Given what you said, that I need someone with the knowledge and tools to help , I am think I am about as screwed either way. I seriously doubt that the high school dropout experienced mechanic will have the tools with him to fix my ride. Therefore, my choice is some hot young girl in a bikini. Maybe a tow truck would be helpful too. Or a hot blond girl with a tow truck.

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Old 05-14-2011, 21:10   #109
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Partially correct, but that is not all of it. the MAJORITY of GT posters fall into the category of 1 and 2 but also pretty much understand that fact. And while they may have an opinion or questions some things are at least open to information as to why their opinion may be wrong. or why things were done the way they were.

But then you have a very vocal MINORITY that also fall into the that category but adamantly refuse to believe they don't in fact know how police work is done and think that how THEY think it should be done or how they view things is absolutely correct. Even when they have absolutely no training or experience to base those opinions on.

You can find plenty of evidence of that in this thread alone.
Now we are getting somewhere.

We have established that most GT are not LEO and/or criminals and therefore really don't know the "system." However, they have strong opinions.

Why would people, who basically not being LEO or criminals care be vocal about what LEO does? I mean it seems to me they have no "skin in the game."

-Dana
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Old 05-14-2011, 21:37   #110
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You can't simply train/educate anyone to design a plane.
You are the one that set the qualification at simply "educated engineer." A "educated engineer is someone that has successfully completed their training as an engineer.

Training is simply learning a skill or job. in the case of the educated engineer, they are someone who learned the skills needed to be an engineer.

And yes not everyone has the aptitude to be an engineer but the same is true of being a good cop or a good mechanic, or many other jobs. the best at it will always be those with an aptitude for that kind of job or work.

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This is the same argument is saying that with enough experience and training I could be a QB in the NFL. No matter how much experience and training you give me, it isn't happening.
That does not change the fact that engineers entrusted with building planes have the training needed to do so and the experience to do so. I am not aware of any airline or plane manufacturing company that entrust building airplanes to someone fresh out of school with no actual experience in having actually been part of building a plane before.
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Old 05-14-2011, 21:42   #111
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Why would people, who basically not being LEO or criminals care be vocal about what LEO does? I mean it seems to me they have no "skin in the game."
Simple they do have something in the game, usually a chip on their shoulder about cops, but usually the actual root of the problem is they despise authority of any kind and cops are simply the most visible representation of Govt. authority.

It is not hard to see, they like to drop into threads about cops and add absolutely NOTHING to the discussion other than to vent their spleen about cops.

Like toddlers in the terrible twos they hate being told NO.
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Old 05-14-2011, 21:45   #112
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You are the one that set the qualification at simply "educated engineer." A "educated engineer is someone that has successfully completed their training as an engineer.

Training is simply learning a skill or job. in the case of the educated engineer, they are someone who learned the skills needed to be an engineer.

And yes not everyone has the aptitude to be an engineer but the same is true of being a good cop or a good mechanic, or many other jobs. the best at it will always be those with an aptitude for that kind of job or work.



That does not change the fact that engineers entrusted with building planes have the training needed to do so and the experience to do so. I am not aware of any airline or plane manufacturing company that entrust building airplanes to someone fresh out of school with no actual experience in having actually been part of building a plane before.

holy hairsplitting batman.

I may get an infraction for saying so, but I dare say it does not take as much training and education to become a peace officer as it does to become a mechanic or engineer.
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Old 05-14-2011, 21:57   #113
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No. Your original post said that people do not criticize neurosurgeons the same way they do LEO.

I offered an explanation the average person has a basic understanding of LE and the average person has absolutely no understanding of neurosurgery.

Now, lets take this one step further. By law, the average person in the USA is legally required to participate in the crimal justice system (maybe its different where you live). We are required to participate as jurors which do in fact judge LE activities in criminal cases. So by law, we are qualified as participants in the the criminal (and civil) justice system.

I know of no law that requires citizens to act as surgeons but maybe I am ignorant.

So in fact, the basis of you post that citiznes have no authority to question LEO actions than surgeons is factually fasle. In addition, all LEO officers are servants of the people and serve at the will of the people (or at least at the will of the officials elected by the people which in a republic is the same as serving at the will of the people). Most surgeons do not.

There are many many reasons why people question LEO and do not question neurosurgeons.

-Dana



Bingo on that last sentence & brilliant examples in your posting.

And history has shown that the civillians questioning Law & Justice , has fix or cause the cycle for things to be fix.
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Old 05-14-2011, 22:02   #114
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I may get an infraction for saying so, but I dare say it does not take as much training and education to become a peace officer as it does to become a mechanic or engineer.
And your point is? How much training and education that is required to learn to do any job is secondary to whether or not you have an aptitude for the job.

Plenty of people go through police standards and even get a job as a cop only to discover that out once they are on the street they don't have what it takes to do the job. And the same is true of engineers and mechanics. merely being trained to do something does not mean you are going to be any good at it.
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Old 05-14-2011, 22:24   #115
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And your point is? How much training and education that is required to learn to do any job is secondary to whether or not you have an aptitude for the job.

Plenty of people go through police standards and even get a job as a cop only to discover that out once they are on the street they don't have what it takes to do the job. And the same is true of engineers and mechanics. merely being trained to do something does not mean you are going to be any good at it.

and the same thing can be said for window washers, bus drivers, and janitors.

I will get in trouble if I elaborate further.
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Old 05-14-2011, 22:24   #116
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holy hairsplitting batman.

I may get an infraction for saying so, but I dare say it does not take as much training and education to become a peace officer as it does to become a mechanic or engineer.
And you'd be wrong.

Mechanic: 51 weeks at UTI for their Automotive Technology Training Program

http://www.uti.edu/Programs/Automoti...air/Automotive

Engineer: 9 weeks of conductor school plus "16-20" weeks of Locomotive Engineer class. You could easily be driving a train by Christmas if you start now.

http://www.modocrailroadacademy.com/faq.htm

I'll not count the 97 hours of college credit I had in Police Administration at Eastern Kentucky University since

A: It wasn't a requirement to get my job
and
B: I didn't learn anything about real police work there anyway.

I started in June of 1997. My basic police training academy was 16 weeks. We got sworn in and then did another 16 weeks of post- certification training before we graduated from the academy. We then had two weeks of Intoxilyzer certification and RADAR certification (40 hours each) before we started our Field Training Officer training. We all did 3 rotations of 5 weeks duration each before beginning our solo patrol phase in which we were still probationary employees and subject to one final review board before we were totally cut loose in October of 1998.
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Old 05-14-2011, 22:35   #117
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and the same thing can be said for window washers, bus drivers, and janitors.

I will get in trouble if I elaborate further.
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Old 05-14-2011, 22:51   #118
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oooh, smileys
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Old 05-14-2011, 23:23   #119
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And you'd be wrong.

Mechanic: 51 weeks at UTI for their Automotive Technology Training Program

http://www.uti.edu/Programs/Automoti...air/Automotive

Engineer: 9 weeks of conductor school plus "16-20" weeks of Locomotive Engineer class. You could easily be driving a train by Christmas if you start now.

http://www.modocrailroadacademy.com/faq.htm

I'll not count the 97 hours of college credit I had in Police Administration at Eastern Kentucky University since

A: It wasn't a requirement to get my job
and
B: I didn't learn anything about real police work there anyway.

I started in June of 1997. My basic police training academy was 16 weeks. We got sworn in and then did another 16 weeks of post- certification training before we graduated from the academy. We then had two weeks of Intoxilyzer certification and RADAR certification (40 hours each) before we started our Field Training Officer training. We all did 3 rotations of 5 weeks duration each before beginning our solo patrol phase in which we were still probationary employees and subject to one final review board before we were totally cut loose in October of 1998.

LOL they were talking about engineers designing airplanes and now suddenly you're talking about a guy that drives a train. very smooth.

it would take about 24 months to become a licenced aircraft maintainance engineer. even longer if you want to be an aeronautical engineer, as you need a 4 year degree.

so 96 weeks for aircraft repair, well over 175 weeks for aeronautical engineering, by your own info it takes 51 weeks to become a mechanic, and you were graduated from the police academy in 32 weeks.

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Old 05-15-2011, 08:54   #120
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of Locomotive Engineer class. You could easily be driving a train by Christmas if you start now.
I have been wonding for quite a while when I get to drive the train...but no luck so far...

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Old 05-15-2011, 09:15   #121
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And your point is? How much training and education that is required to learn to do any job is secondary to whether or not you have an aptitude for the job.

Plenty of people go through police standards and even get a job as a cop only to discover that out once they are on the street they don't have what it takes to do the job. And the same is true of engineers and mechanics. merely being trained to do something does not mean you are going to be any good at it.
And some choose to stay and play, doing a mediocre job just under the radar, others leave voluntarily, others are encouraged to change jobs, others are forced to.

Okay, lets get off this path and back to the original topic, "What's the RAS for stopping someone carrying".
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Old 05-15-2011, 09:29   #122
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Simple they do have something in the game, usually a chip on their shoulder about cops, but usually the actual root of the problem is they despise authority of any kind and cops are simply the most visible representation of Govt. authority.

It is not hard to see, they like to drop into threads about cops and add absolutely NOTHING to the discussion other than to vent their spleen about cops.

Like toddlers in the terrible twos they hate being told NO.
I would say that there is the genernal anti-authority people. You may even say I fit into that (but you would be wrong).

In general, I am not anti-authority, but anti a broken justice system.

For example, in another thread about 5 people being cited for OC, the general consensus was that there were “no damages” because charges were dropped. In another thread about not having a right to resist unlawful entry, the justices said that the basic premise is out dated because people have redress and bail. Keep in mind these are short summaries.

However, if a person is innocent (I make this a very big distinction) such as the guy who were cited for OC or people who have had SWAT teams break down the wrong door because of an incorrect address, they really don’t have redress. A SWAT team breaking down your door in the middle of the night can cause severe damage that is not necessarily easy to measure monetarily. Being charged, causes damage to people. There is the expenses of hiring attorneys, the court appearances, stress involved with the situation. In general, when someone innocent in wrongfully arrested/charged their lives are turned upside down until the ordeal is over. Some people it takes a long time to end.

For example this guy who is very near me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggy_Hettrick_murder_case

He spent 10 years in prison for something he didn’t do. At the end, he has won a large civil lawsuit and the following has happened. “On June 30, 2010, a Larimer County Grand Jury indicted Lt. James Broderick on eight counts of felony first degree perjury for false material statements he made related to the arrest and conviction of Masters”

That detective, if found guilty, will likely face a couple years in jail. Really, he should spend every day in prison that the other guy did.

In general, it is very easy for people that are part “of the system” to say “no-harm-no-foul” we let you out. But, realistically, any arrest/charges for which a person is innocent disrupts their lives and can have serious economic consequences. Unlike police, most jobs do not pay you for time taken to resolve a legal issue. You can tell your employer that you need weeks off for a trial but after about 3 days, you are out of a job. It is not a no-harm-no-foul game. LEO, prosecutors, and the others that are part of the justice system are playing with peoples lives. The split-second, “reasonable-cop” standard can have lasting impacts on people lives.

I also believe the justice system is broken in that it is very one-sided. If I were charged with a crime, there is ample money to pay however many detectives, labs, etc are need to produce evidence against me. Essentially there are unlimited funds to go after me. However, my defense is based upon what I can afford. Lawyers are typically $250+ an hour. Labs tests are similarly priced. My mother was involved in a legal dispute (executor of an estate), and legal fees quickly piled up to a quarter million. How many people have an extra $250K (or $25k) laying around to keep themselves out of prison. Add to that that once they are charged, they may lose their jobs.

The other end of LEO that I see all the time is the speed traps on the highway. There is a section in the north end of town, where the speed limit is 65. About once a week, there is an officer standing on an overpass with a lidar/radar gun. Down just a little ways is 10-15 cop cars/motorcycles. They are pulling people over left and right. People see the police and slam on brake. People are pulling out into traffic after being stopped. Police are pulling chasing people. People and police are slowing down and moving across traffic for the traffic stop. Last time I drove through there with the speed trap, there was rear end collision on the side. The police in this section of the highway are creating much more danger than the person driving 70 or 75. The LEO are being used as revenue collection devices. What I blame the LEO for is not standing up and saying they are creating an unsafe situation (people slamming on brake on a highway is not safe) and refusing to do it. To copy a signature line..wrong is wrong even if everyone else is doing it.

LEO also think they should get a pass for split second decisions. Maybe they break the law (assault) but that is what a “reasonable officer” would do. Well, in general, there are many people in prison that basically are (were) good people that made a bad decision in a hurry based upon their situation. It seems that the justice system does not recognize this.

So, as you see, its not LEO that I have an issue with. It is how the “justice system” works and the general “no-harm-no-foul” attitude of the those involved with the system. Of course the hard part is balancing innocence with justice for the real criminals. But one guiding principle that this country was founded on is that it is better to let a guilty person go free than imprison an innocent person. This principle was for very good reason as there was an elite class that basically, imprisoned who they liked for what-ever they liked . I fear the balance is shifting back to imprisoning everyone. Why does the USA have the highest per-capita incarceration rate?

-Dana
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:31   #123
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:40   #124
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The notion of why people would be inclined to carp and second-guess what a cop does vs. what a neurosurgeon does has a lot more to do with the good ol' American habit of reserving their right to give government officials unbridled hell. The cop is the 24/7/365 representative of the .gov, and the most visible manifestation thereoff.

If all neurosurgeons were public employees, and thus a perennial symbol of what everyone dislikes in our often-bungling, politically screwed-up government system, they'd be catching a lot more grief and a lot less worship. One supposes that will come soon enough when the neurosurgeons are dumbed down enough to stay in the Obamacare medical system.
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:58   #125
Sam Spade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Okay, lets get off this path and back to the original topic, "What's the RAS for stopping someone carrying".
Articuable facts and reasonable inferences which, based on the totality of the circumstances, would lead one to believe that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed.

No percentage likelihood has ever been assigned. However, the "preponderance of the evidence" is 50.1%. Probably cause is lower than that, lower than 50-50 Reasonable suspicion is lower still.

In the OP: an area suffering a rash of car busts, commonly found at night. A non-resident in the area with items in his car such as are frequently stolen in car busts. A time of day where no business is open, the vast majority of people are asleep and he does not provide an explanation. He's armed. Yes, Virginia, there is RS.

Of course there may be innocent explanations, just as Mr. Terry could have ended up being an indecisive window-shopper. Doesn't matter.

And of course you can listen to any lawyer, who will tell you not to talk. And your night will get longer as we do the work ourselves, guided by our own suspicious nature looking to see if there's a case instead of your input in your best interests. It really is a free country, though. That includes the freedom to make less than optimal choices and live with the consequences.

Now let me broaden the discussion: imagine a man carrying a rifle in his hands, approaching a mall during business hours. Working off the definition, can anyone *not* see RS to stop him and investigate? Bonus: Any time the government has the authority to do something, they have the authority to use reasonable force (as determined by the model "reasonable officer" NOT the more generic "reasonable man") to make it happen. Would such a stop/detention/investigation justify the threatened use of firearms by LE? Why or why not?
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