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Old 05-10-2011, 16:51   #151
brboyer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
That is the usual stance of those indoctrinated with moral relativism and situational ethics.

So everyones morals are of equal value are they?

The morals\values of the person that equates "stranger" with "enemy" and thinks it is ok to kill them is the same as the one who thinks the stranger should be treated the same way they would want to be treated.

The one who petitions their god by prayer and fasting is the same as the one that their God(s) by taking prisoners and rips their heart out and kicks their lifeless body down the temple stairs.

The one that thinks it is only wrong to murder or rob members of their own group or family is the same as the one that thinks you shouldn't murder or rob anyone.

Both morals and values are of equal value are they?
Not sure why some folks keep wanting to bring morals and ethics into what was a purely legal discussion.

My representation of Florida law is accurate. Some folks just can't seem to seperate their personal opinions/views from the law.
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Old 05-10-2011, 16:57   #152
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So you believe that absent a law prohibiting it, a property owner has the authority and right to prohibit firearms on their property.
I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself, even after you agreed with me.

In Florida, there is nothing, legally, a property owner can do to prevent an invitee from entering the property owner's structure with a firearm.

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I wanted to know.
Fair enough, I answered.
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Old 05-10-2011, 17:13   #153
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This
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Originally Posted by brboyer View Post
In Florida, there is nothing, legally, a property owner can do to prevent an invitee from entering the property owner's structure with a firearm.
is absolutely not the same as this
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
...absent a law prohibiting it, a property owner has the authority and right to prohibit firearms on their property.
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Old 05-10-2011, 17:46   #154
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This is absolutely not the same as this
Correct, they are not the same.

The first one, repeated many, many times, is a true representation of the law in Florida.

The second one is a generic statement that fails to address the specific legal mechanisms available to enforce those desires.
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Old 05-10-2011, 17:57   #155
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Correct, they are not the same.

The first one, repeated many, many times, is a true representation of the law in Florida.

The second one is a generic statement that fails to address the specific legal mechanisms available to enforce those desires.
you sound like you think that a right does not exist unless the state authorizes it and backs it with a criminal penalty for violating it.
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Old 05-10-2011, 18:01   #156
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Not sure why some folks keep wanting to bring morals and ethics into what was a purely legal discussion.
Because some folks keep arguing that their lack of morals and ethics says it is OK to ignore the rights of others unless their is a legal restriction. Some of us continue to point out that one should not base good manners and respect for others strictly on the law.
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My representation of Florida law is accurate. Some folks just can't seem to separate their personal opinions/views from the law.
Given that a number of folks here with a fair amount of experience with the law disagree with your representation of the law, and the fact that you have been unable to provide any case law in support of your representation, the accuracy is questionable at best.
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Old 05-10-2011, 18:33   #157
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you sound like you think that a right does not exist unless the state authorizes it and backs it with a criminal penalty for violating it.
I never implied anything of the kind. I'm simply pointing out the law. Other's want to turn this into a discussion not about the law, but about rights/morals/ethics/feelings/wants/opinions/desires, etc.
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Old 05-10-2011, 19:55   #158
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I never implied anything of the kind. I'm simply pointing out the law. Other's want to turn this into a discussion not about the law, but about rights/morals/ethics/feelings/wants/opinions/desires, etc.
The thread started with the assertion that OC would lead to restrictions. Gutmacher is pretty sharp. What's been pointed out is why OC will lead to restrictions. It is the morality of the issue; the attitude that, absent written law and penalty, you don't need to honor a property owner's wishes.

Such an attitude, obvious in a non-zero percentage of carriers, means that the state will step in and further micromanage our lives. An inability to self-govern and self-discipline means that control and order will be imposed from without.
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Old 05-10-2011, 20:23   #159
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The thread started with the assertion that OC would lead to restrictions. Gutmacher is pretty sharp. What's been pointed out is why OC will lead to restrictions. It is the morality of the issue; the attitude that, absent written law and penalty, you don't need to honor a property owner's wishes.

Such an attitude, obvious in a non-zero percentage of carriers, means that the state will step in and further micromanage our lives. An inability to self-govern and self-discipline means that control and order will be imposed from without.
+1 and the same folks that think they don't need or have to honor someone else's eights will be the first to complain about the "nanny state" when it steps in and enforces those rights with legislation.

seriously how can so many not understand that the attitude of, "If it isn't against the law, I will do as I please" is precisely what leads to laws being passed to prohibit then from "doing as they please."
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Old 05-10-2011, 20:29   #160
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Originally Posted by brboyer View Post
Correct, they are not the same.

The first one, repeated many, many times, is a true representation of the law in Florida.

The second one is a generic statement that fails to address the specific legal mechanisms available to enforce those desires.
Do you advocate a law outlawing property rights in any way?
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Old 05-11-2011, 06:39   #161
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Such an attitude, obvious in a non-zero percentage of carriers, means that the state will step in and further micromanage our lives. An inability to self-govern and self-discipline means that control and order will be imposed from without.

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Old 05-11-2011, 07:37   #162
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+1 and the same folks that think they don't need or have to honor someone else's eights will be the first to complain about the "nanny state" when it steps in and enforces those rights with legislation.

seriously how can so many not understand that the attitude of, "If it isn't against the law, I will do as I please" is precisely what leads to laws being passed to prohibit then from "doing as they please."
I'm sorry, where is the "right to demand people not carry weapons onto your property," enumerated?

"Rights" is such a loosely used term these days.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:36   #163
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The principals of Private Property Rights are well founded in the establishment of this Country.
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http://www.stanford.edu/~isegal/prights.pdf
Quote:
The basic concept of a property right is relatively simple: A property right gives the owner of an asset the right to the use and benefits of the asset, and the right to exclude others from them. It also, typically, gives the owner the freedom to transfer these rights to others. Roman law referred to these elements as usus (the right to use), abusus (the right to encumber or transfer), and fructus (the right to the fruits). The American jurist Oliver Wendell Holmes put it this way,
But what are the rights of ownership? They are substantially the same as those incident to possession. Within the limits prescribed by policy, the owner is allowed to exercise his natural powers over the subject matter uninterfered with, and is more or less protected in excluding other people from such interference. The owner is allowed to exclude all, and is accountable to no one but him.
Thus, property rights over an asset can be defined as a bundle of decision rights involving the asset (also called entitlements in the legal literature), which provide rights to take certain actions (“rights of access”) and to prevent others from taking certain actions (“rights of exclusion”)...
John Adams said, "The moment that the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the Laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. Property must be sacred or liberty cannot exist."

James Madison said [http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...1ch16s23.html], "Government is instituted to protect property of every sort..."

William Blackstone, whose legal writings were considered as the final authority in American courts for a century-and-a-half after the adoption of the U. S. Constitution, declared: “So great moreover is the regard of the law for private property that it will not authorize the least violation of it – no, not even for the general good of the whole community” [http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...v1ch16s5.html]
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Old 05-11-2011, 09:03   #164
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http://media.hoover.org/sites/defaul...17939121_1.pdf

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What Are Property Rights?

"Whether they are formal or informal, whether they apply to tangible or intangible assets, property rights consist of multiple characteristics often referred to by lawyers as a bundle of sticks, each of which represents a different aspect of property ownership. These ownership characteristics include the right to use (and so to profit from) an asset, the right to exclude others from using the asset, and the right to transfer the asset to others. In its most complete form, ownership of property grants the owner control of all the sticks as long as use does not infringe on the rights of others. The owner of a car, for example, has the right to carry friends and family in the car, as long as he or she drives it in a manner that does not endanger other drivers. Property rights allow the owner to determine the uses of the asset and to derive value from the asset. They also ensure the owner of the rights to physically transform and even destroy the asset."

"Locke’s perspective influenced Adam Smith’s work, especially The Wealth of Nations (1776), a century later. Smith built on Locke’s view that property existed within a larger system of natural rights and that the institutions of property and government were self-reinforcing."

"The authors of the U.S. Declaration of Independence and Constitution shared Locke’s and Smith’s beliefs in the importance of private ownership. The Founding Fathers firmly believed that the human right to private property had to be protected in law as the basis for individual liberty, a free society, and a free economy. The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, for example, was aimed at protecting private property from governmental takings. Because the rule of law and constitutions guaranteed the sanctity of property in England and the United States during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, trade and commerce flourished and economies grew."

"PROPERTY RIGHTS: The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product is a slave."

Ayn Rand, The Virtue of Selfishness
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Old 05-11-2011, 09:06   #165
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I'm sorry, where is the "right to demand people not carry weapons onto your property," enumerated?

"Rights" is such a loosely used term these days.
Seriously, you don't understand property rights?

Where is the right to do as you wish on someone else's property enumerated?
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Old 05-11-2011, 09:08   #166
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Originally Posted by Vip18971 View Post
I'm sorry, where is the "right to demand people not carry weapons onto your property," enumerated?

"Rights" is such a loosely used term these days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Seriously, you don't understand property rights?
See above...it's a Natural Right to own and control ones property.
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Old 05-11-2011, 09:11   #167
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I'm sorry, where is the "right to demand people not carry weapons onto your property," enumerated?

"Rights" is such a loosely used term these days.
Such a specific right is not enumerated. The right is a broad one that establishes a right to profit from and control what happens on property that they own and/or control. It is one of the cornerstones of our jurisprudence.
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Old 05-11-2011, 10:20   #168
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I'm sorry, where is the "right to demand people not carry weapons onto your property," enumerated?

"Rights" is such a loosely used term these days.
You probably need to clarify here. Property rights, as pointed out already, are not a loosely used term, nor are they something that's just cropped up "these days".

So is it your position that a right has to be enumerated for it to exsist? That implies that, absent the intervention of the government, there is no right.
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Old 05-11-2011, 13:48   #169
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You probably need to clarify here. Property rights, as pointed out already, are not a loosely used term, nor are they something that's just cropped up "these days".

So is it your position that a right has to be enumerated for it to exsist? That implies that, absent the intervention of the government, there is no right.
The idea that one only has the rights that Govt. authorizes through legislation seems to be a popular one these days.
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Old 05-11-2011, 20:24   #170
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the idea that one only has the rights that govt. Authorizes through legislation seems to be a popular one these days.
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Old 05-12-2011, 22:17   #171
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Good to see the property rights issue is now understood, finally.
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Old 05-12-2011, 22:30   #172
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Good to see the property rights issue is now understood, finally.
I already understood that some here apparently don't like property rights.

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Old 05-12-2011, 22:31   #173
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I already understood that some here apparently don't like property rights.

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