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Old 04-10-2011, 18:37   #51
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With the .357sig, Why does the 9mm exist? Or why does the .40 S&W exist when the .45 ACP does a better job?
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Old 04-10-2011, 19:13   #52
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I own a 31, 32 and 33.....love the round immensely. I've found factory ammo for the same price as the 40sw....so the price argument is a moot point in my book.
.
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Old 04-10-2011, 19:29   #53
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"Why does the .357 SIG need to exist? In the military one uses what one is issued. There is no sitting around reading articles and picking out exactly what one wants. In most LE agencies, one carries and uses what is authorized for carry/use. There may be some latitude, but one will not be able to do as one pleases. One will have to abide by policy. Private citizens can choose to carry/use what they want to carry/use. The multiplicity of calibers available for rifles and handguns testifies to the tremendous variety of choices available. People make their decisions based on a lot of different factors, of which ballistics, etc., are a partial factor. Sometimes, people make their choice based on a particular type of handgun. Sometimes they even make those choices based on popular mythology... i.e., that a particular caliber is somehow superior that other very similar calibers.
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Old 04-10-2011, 20:19   #54
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Originally Posted by Cooks128 View Post
I own a 31, 32 and 33.....love the round immensely. I've found factory ammo for the same price as the 40sw....so the price argument is a moot point in my book.
.
+1

http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/pistol-ammunition/357-sig
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Old 04-10-2011, 21:36   #55
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No. Can't do anything with the 125gr. bullets of the 9mm +P+, .38 Super, 9X21, 9x23, 356TSW, and so on. High velocity mid-bore has been redone over and over. 9mm is still around because none of them do anything much if anything better.
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Old 04-10-2011, 21:47   #56
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Before 357 Sig was developed, the Secret Service was looking for a cartridge that had the ballistics of the 125 grain JHP 357 Magnum, which had the best gunfight record at that time, and would work in automatic pistols. Federal and Sig worked on developing the cartridge and the P-229 pistol. Pretty much with the understanding that if it was developed and produced, that the Secret Service would buy their pistols and ammunition.
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Old 04-10-2011, 22:07   #57
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cant we all just get along, look... big freaking deal, some of us like the .357sig, and some of you don't.... . I for one do like the .357sig i have used it on duty as a cop and i have also used a .40.... just like we can argue the difference between a 12 gauge, 16 gauge or 20 gauge shot gun... it all comes down to one thing. What do YOU need a gun for, what is YOUR purpose for shooting and what do YOU like. because if your a target shooter that only puts holes in paper, maybe you want a light .40, if your a competition shooter maybe you want a light 9, if your a cop maybe you need 180 grain .40 or maybe you want the distance you can reach with a .357sig without the bullet drop.... everyone is different and we all have different reasons for shooting. buy what you need and stop trying to convince us we need what you have.....
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Old 04-10-2011, 23:47   #58
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If .40 S&Ws can push a 135gr bullet to 1420 fps, PLUS a 165 gr @ 1240fps, plus a 180gr @ 1150fps, all the way up to a 200 gr @ 1100fps, why does anyone need the .357 sig?

The 125 grain .357 SIG is a smaller bullet and it only has 100fps higher velocity than the larger 135 gr .40S&W. If you up the weight of the .357 SIG to 147 grains, it only makes 1296fps, compared to a heavier 165gr .40S&W at 1240.

On top of that, Double Tap loads a 125 grain .40S&W load at 1445fps, lagging behind the .357 SIG round by only 5 fps.

I don't see the need to hang on to the .357 SIG round when it is already scarce on store shelves and is more difficult to reload and re-use brass, being a necked down cartridge.

Someone defend it and prove me wrong
I don't see the need for 40 S&W.

When you look at the idea between 40 S&W and 357 SIG from the standpoint what happens to the target (living or inanimate) after it's hit, what can't a 357 SIG do with a single bullet weight of 125 grains that a 40 S&W can do with any bullet weight?

My answer to that is nothing. The 357 SIG is virtually always better than or equal to 40 S&W, not the other way around. This based on leaving cost of ammo out of the equation, which appears to be more or less getting too close to worry about anyway.

You mentioned that Double Tap loads a 125 grain .40S&W load at 1445fps, lagging behind the .357 SIG round by only 5 fps. First of all, that's ONLY if DT isn't lying about the FPS, as they currently are with 10mm. And I'm not just talking about -50fps. I'm talking about +100fps in most cases.

That said, let's assume for a moment that Double Tap's 357 SIG and 40 S&W box flap claims are true. Well then DT also offers a 357 SIG 125gr JHP load at 1525fps. Now that becomes +80fps, not the +5 fps you mentioned earlier. Now some will say that still, 80fps ain't you know what. I don't agree as 80fps equals an additional 55mph. And in my book that's enough to make a positive difference in wounding and incapacitation of a threat. Your mileage may vary. Just my 2 cents.

All that said, I would never tell anyone they shouldn't carry 40 S&W. And for myself personally, I only carry 10mm which IMO outdoes either 357 SIG or 40 S&W.
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Old 04-10-2011, 23:49   #59
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Originally Posted by firemedic1343 View Post
If my hands were too small for a SF 10mm, then I'd go with the .357
+1

If for some reason 10mm didn't exist or just couldn't work for me for one reason or another, it would be 357SIG all the way!
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Old 04-10-2011, 23:55   #60
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Variety is the spice of life. IMO the 9mm is the perfect handgun round, but there is enough room for them all.. From the .22 to the 500 S&W, they all have their purpose and fans..
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Old 04-10-2011, 23:57   #61
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Originally Posted by glockfan5171 View Post
cant we all just get along, look... big freaking deal, some of us like the .357sig, and some of you don't.... . I for one do like the .357sig i have used it on duty as a cop and i have also used a .40.... just like we can argue the difference between a 12 gauge, 16 gauge or 20 gauge shot gun... it all comes down to one thing. What do YOU need a gun for, what is YOUR purpose for shooting and what do YOU like. because if your a target shooter that only puts holes in paper, maybe you want a light .40, if your a competition shooter maybe you want a light 9, if your a cop maybe you need 180 grain .40 or maybe you want the distance you can reach with a .357sig without the bullet drop.... everyone is different and we all have different reasons for shooting. buy what you need and stop trying to convince us we need what you have.....
When I just "want" to put holes in paper and plink around for no other reason than to plink, it's 22LR and/or 22MAG. Not something as expensive as 40 S&W.

Though, don't misunderstand, I do see your overall point. I was "just saying".

Oh yeah, you said; "if your a competition shooter maybe you want a light 9". I knew there had to be a reason people shoot 9, but could never put my finger on it. Thanks!
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Old 04-11-2011, 01:03   #62
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I'm just sayin, if you only target shoot..... but you own a .40.... you wouldn't want 180 grain... and i know a lot of comp shooters that shoot 1911's, but they don't shoot the heavy loads. people want the light loads so they can manage the recoil better, get on target faster, ect.... where police and military are different, we want the heavier loads for more "stopping power" and penetration. but i differ from opinion with you in one area, as stated i work in law enforcement, so i train like i fight and fight like i train.... i don't "practice" or target shoot with .22, i shoot 180 gr .40 all the time, because that's what i carry on duty. but we are all different, and that's just my preference. i do occasionally plink with my .22 rifle... lol.... but handguns... right now I'm all .40 and thats only because my G31 was stolen a few years back and i never replaced it. but i respect the 357sig for the many qualities it has such as velocity and range..... those are both good qualities in my opinion.
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:45   #63
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...where police and military are different, we want the heavier loads for more "stopping power" and penetration.
I'm with ya 99% except for the statement above. It's true for some, but plenty of police use light to medium weight bullets per caliber too. Not to mention probably all of them that carry 357 SIG.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:51   #64
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No, it doesn't need to. Come to think of it neither does the 41AE, 40S&W, 9x19, .38, etc. etc.

But I'm glad they do. Variety is the spice of life.

And for those who have come to any caliber that is their favorite, for them it needs to exist.
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Old 04-11-2011, 13:23   #65
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The real question is will it last

Because either your gaining or your loosing ground

I want a G33 as my primary spring summer carry as I feel it packs the max in the smallest package

But .357 sig in my area might as well be a unicorn
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Old 04-11-2011, 15:21   #66
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The real question is will it last

Because either your gaining or your loosing ground

I want a G33 as my primary spring summer carry as I feel it packs the max in the smallest package

But .357 sig in my area might as well be a unicorn
The SIG was gaining popularity around here when some agencies started switching a few years back. Since then, I've seen interest wane. People who have the SIG love it.

Of all the rarer high performance calibers, I've seen the 10mm gaining a lot of ground around here. Not with LEO, but with the public.

I've always encouraged people to hold onto their SIGS if they like them. You never know in a few years, it could be the hot round again. It certainly has a lot going for it.
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Old 04-11-2011, 15:22   #67
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At one point I owned both a G23 & a G32. I ran them head to head & found out I was more accurate & my times back on tgt were both better w/357sig. I promptly sold the G23. I also prefer the recoil characteristics of the 357sig over the .40.

OTOH, I completely agree that the cost & availability of 357sig ammo (I don't reload or buy online) makes it the reason why my G32 sits in the safe & some other calibers get carried & shot alot more. So what has 357sig done for me? It further proves that I don't need .40sw. But my 9mms & 45acps prove this, too.

Does it need to exist? Yes
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Old 04-12-2011, 05:45   #68
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Not really Daryl. Bore dia matters, especially when you are talking small bore vs medium vs large. SD also matters, so does bullet mass, so does bullet counstruction. What I was trying to point out the the OP was his lack of understanding that vel & mass alone don't make up for lack of SD or bullet construction. If you are trying to get anyone to believe the 1mm larger bullet makes up for the lower SD, then you would be wrong, it's been proven many, many times over.
Yes, really; but you missed my point. The smaller diameter bullet only has a higher BC if compared to similar weight bullets in the larger caliber. If you compare, say, 124 grain bullets in 9mm to 155 gr bullets in .40, or 148 grain 9mm to 180 grain .40 of the same type/manufacture, the .40 generally has a higher BC and SD. IOW, medium-weight-for-caliber bullets compared to medium-wieght-for-caliber bullets, or heavy-for-caliber compared to heavy-for-caliber bullets. Apples to apples, so to speak.

Now, if someone's determined to shoot a 124-135 grain bullet for self-defense, and wants to have the highest BC and SD, then the smaller bore makes sense. IME, that would only be the case when addressing a very specific need.

BTW-once a bullet starts to expand, the SD changes. How much depends on how much expansion there is, and what shape the bullet assumes. For that reason, SD pretty much goes out the window, and penetration becomes more dependent on mass and momentum. Bigger and heavier bullets have more momentum, and leave bigger holes.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:26   #69
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SD and momentum are non-issues as long as the bullet meets the 12" FBI standard. The whole "bigger holes" thing is about the last thing to worry about. I would argue capacity is possibly more important, especially considering that most shots fired in self-defense actually miss and the odds of multiple attackers seem to be increasing over the "old days".

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Old 04-12-2011, 09:20   #70
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Yes, really; but you missed my point. The smaller diameter bullet only has a higher BC if compared to similar weight bullets in the larger caliber. If you compare, say, 124 grain bullets in 9mm to 155 gr bullets in .40, or 148 grain 9mm to 180 grain .40 of the same type/manufacture, the .40 generally has a higher BC and SD. IOW, medium-weight-for-caliber bullets compared to medium-wieght-for-caliber bullets, or heavy-for-caliber compared to heavy-for-caliber bullets. Apples to apples, so to speak.

Now, if someone's determined to shoot a 124-135 grain bullet for self-defense, and wants to have the highest BC and SD, then the smaller bore makes sense. IME, that would only be the case when addressing a very specific need.

BTW-once a bullet starts to expand, the SD changes. How much depends on how much expansion there is, and what shape the bullet assumes. For that reason, SD pretty much goes out the window, and penetration becomes more dependent on mass and momentum. Bigger and heavier bullets have more momentum, and leave bigger holes.
Then we agree as that is what I said in my first reply to the OP. SD matters, regardless of diameter. Correct on the SD changing during expansion, it's why bullets must be of the identical construction to have a realistic comparison. Bonded bulelts & monometals have changed the ideas on SD, but it's still valid for evaluating most bullets peformance.
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:53   #71
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Originally Posted by G21FAN View Post
With the .357sig, Why does the 9mm exist? Or why does the .40 S&W exist when the .45 ACP does a better job?

You guys are killing me! Didnt we just go through this last week? I think that one was why does the .40 exist!
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:59   #72
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Bigger and heavier bullets have more momentum...
To anyone that cares, just wanted to add;

Two bullets of different "weight", both identical in construction/design, can produce equal momentum.

The bullet possessing more momentum from mass will penetrate further.

The bullet possessing more momentum from velocity will penetrate less.

Remember, momentum is derived from both MASS and VELOCITY.

Bottom line, more momentum does NOT always mean more penetration. But at common self defense cartridge bullet speeds from handguns, for any available bullet weight, assuming you're comparing bullets of same design/construction, the heavier bullet will usually out penetrate any other lighter one.
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Old 04-12-2011, 11:13   #73
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It's sectional density. That's the real reason one would want .357SIG over a 135gr .40S&W. If you knew you would always be attacked by someone in light clothing with no barriers between you then yes it probably doesn't offer much over .40S&W, but if there is any kind of hard barrier involved like auto glass, car door, metal signage, or possibly even interior walls or doors, the .357SIG will deliver more energy to the perp on the other side.
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:13   #74
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I own guns in both cartridges and really enjoy shooting both. It's really up to the shooter. On one hand you make a bigger hole, which is better in soft tissue. On the other you make a smaller hole which allows lighter bullets and thus, more velocity which, along with being a smaller caliber allows you to penitrate hard barriers better. Neck it down even further and you would have body armor penitration but at what point is a bullet too small? 357sig is pretty much one bullet weight design to do one thing really well and it does.

The sectional density of 125gr is comparable to 155gr .40 by the way.Comparing those weights the difference in drop at 100 yards between them is roughly 2 inches. The .40 being heavier looses less energy at range. Heck, standard pressure 230gr .45 can have more energy@ 100 yards than either despite starting out with much less, although it drops like a rock. I just don't understand why you'd need a 357sig to reach out farther, for a tiny difference in drop and no more energy (actually less) at distance. I like the 357 I just don't buy some of the bull surrounding it. I also shoot .40 better and more accurately. I will say .40 has a little more recoil on average but the difference is like splitting hairs. It can vary by brand of ammunition as to which has more or less recoil.

Is 357 sig needed? I think so. The light fast 9mm is covered in other cartridges but they are longer and need larger grips/frames. Some agencies feel they need the best barrier penitration available in current service calibers and for that, 357 sig is the king but that is an awfully small niche.

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Old 04-13-2011, 16:55   #75
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How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.
Yeah, I'm sure the Secret Service picked the .357sig willy nilly without extensive testing. Give me a break.
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