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Old 04-09-2011, 20:53   #26
RustyShackelford
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.

The USBP issued the .357Mag 110JHP (with the 125JHP as an option) to replace the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+ "Treasury" load, then the 115JHP+P+ in 9mm and then the 155JHP in 40S&W, and all of these loads were highly effective on BGs. And BTW, the USBP is involved in more shootings than all the other federal agencies combined.

The Sig cartridge is a limited "nitch" cartridge that can be replaced by all the other semi-auto service calibers. It's really a "neither fish nor fowl" cartridge and it's major downfall for LE use is cost of both training and service ammunition. The 40S&W caliber is much better suited for both LE and civilian SD use because of the various bullet weights/designs available in both training and SD ammunition.
Regarding the USSS not being in many shootings, I can't say it's their fault that no one has tried to act a fool in a way to warrant getting shot at much less hit with the round. Maybe when some crazy shiz happens to/around the President or some airplane then we can start a thread about how much the .357sig is worth and how that round saved this great nation of ours.

/take that .45acp!!
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Old 04-09-2011, 21:07   #27
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Where did you find the specs for .40 ammo? I have winchester 165 grain HP right now, not quite 1100 fps. All the .40 I've found is between 900 and 1100 fps. Energy under 500. RBCD has 77 grain .40 @2100 fps with almost 800 lbs of energy. But I've been told that ammo isn't any good.

BTW, I want a Glock 33 in .357 sig really bad. Hard to find though.

Last edited by Aaron1100us; 04-09-2011 at 21:09..
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Old 04-09-2011, 22:25   #28
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Originally Posted by Aaron1100us View Post
Where did you find the specs for .40 ammo? I have winchester 165 grain HP right now, not quite 1100 fps. All the .40 I've found is between 900 and 1100 fps. Energy under 500. RBCD has 77 grain .40 @2100 fps with almost 800 lbs of energy. But I've been told that ammo isn't any good.

BTW, I want a Glock 33 in .357 sig really bad. Hard to find though.
You have to go to the boutique companies like DoubleTap, Corbon & BuffaloBore to find the high vel 40 stuff, but they also sell hv 357sig stuff to. Really, let's just all go back to the 45acp.
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Old 04-09-2011, 22:59   #29
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I sometimes transport people who require Secret Service protection. After talking to the Secret Service Agents, I have converted two of my .40 S&Ws to .357 SIG.

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Old 04-09-2011, 23:18   #30
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^want to be a little more specific on the reasons?
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Old 04-10-2011, 00:35   #31
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^want to be a little more specific on the reasons?
The Secret Service Agents said that their agency testing showed the .357 SIG to have more muzzle energy, shoot flatter while providing greater accuracy, offer more more reliable feeding due to the rounds necked-down design and provide better penetration in objects like automobile windshields.
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Old 04-10-2011, 00:41   #32
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Most calibers probably don't "need" to exist.
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Old 04-10-2011, 00:50   #33
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I carry a G33 with Ranger T's everyday. I feel pretty damn good about that.
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Old 04-10-2011, 06:54   #34
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If my hands were too small for a SF 10mm, then I'd go with the .357
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Old 04-10-2011, 07:29   #35
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Most newbs into shooting & ballistics miss the sectional density part of any caliber. The SD of the 135gr/40 is the same as the SD of a 105gr/357. So if both bullets have the same construction, both penetrate the same. You can drive a 105gr 357sig to 1600fps, so make both a monometal HP & the 357sig wins the penetration & tissue destruction do to the higher vel.
BTW, the 357sig can handle heavier bullets. I can drive the 135grSGDB to almost 1300fps. That is slightly better than a 165gr/40 & going about 100fps faster. It's a shame that Speer doesnt' play w/ this though, it would be a good one, but better than the 125gr @ 1350fps+, probably not. You would get more penetration out of it, but it's already got a good rep for that.
Many newbs also try to use velocity and energy figures alone to decide the effectiveness of a given cartridge.

They forget things like bullet mass (weight) gained in larger bores, and therefore ignore the added momentum and penetration of heavier bullets. They compare the same light weight bullets for both calibers, and fail to recognize the full potential of the larger bore.

If you take a .308 case and neck it down to say, .243 caliber, do you end up with a superior cartridge for big game? The answer is "no". You simply end up with something different, suitable for different needs.

Same concept applies.

Daryl
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Old 04-10-2011, 07:36   #36
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I prefer it over the .40 S&W 'cause the bottleneck just looks cooler.
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:08   #37
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The Pennsylvania Game commission switched over to G31's several years ago and from what I hear they are very pleased with the round! I have several friends that are WCO's and although they have not had to use the round on BG's they have used it on wounded deer and say it is a devastating round. They also like the fact that it shoots flatter further out then many other rounds.
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:19   #38
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Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
The Secret Service Agents said that their agency testing showed the .357 SIG to have more muzzle energy, shoot flatter while providing greater accuracy, offer more more reliable feeding due to the rounds necked-down design and provide better penetration in objects like automobile windshields.

Thanks. Those all sound like good reasons to me.
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Old 04-10-2011, 10:35   #39
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I hear that a lot but I recently bought 357 SIG/125 for $20.99. The .40/180 on the shelf next to it was $22.99. Both were Speer Gold Dot.
The FMJ .357sig at local shops is usually the worst however select online retailers are bad also. I take it prices you quoted were 20 round boxes which are a huge rip off. I buy GD and HST .357sig online for $30 for 50. If your interested in .357sig buy the ammo online if you don't reload. Currently one of the online ammo companies has FMJ Lawman .357sig for $15.95 for 50 when you buy 500 rounds which isn't bad at all. The cheapest FMJ local to me is $26 for 50 at Cabelas for WWB, local gun shops want over $30 for 50.

Last edited by dkf; 04-10-2011 at 10:37..
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:15   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl in Az View Post
Many newbs also try to use velocity and energy figures alone to decide the effectiveness of a given cartridge.

They forget things like bullet mass (weight) gained in larger bores, and therefore ignore the added momentum and penetration of heavier bullets. They compare the same light weight bullets for both calibers, and fail to recognize the full potential of the larger bore.

If you take a .308 case and neck it down to say, .243 caliber, do you end up with a superior cartridge for big game? The answer is "no". You simply end up with something different, suitable for different needs.

Same concept applies.

Daryl
Not really Daryl. Bore dia matters, especially when you are talking small bore vs medium vs large. SD also matters, so does bullet mass, so does bullet counstruction. What I was trying to point out the the OP was his lack of understanding that vel & mass alone don't make up for lack of SD or bullet construction. If you are trying to get anyone to believe the 1mm larger bullet makes up for the lower SD, then you would be wrong, it's been proven many, many times over.
Quote:
The Secret Service Agents said that their agency testing showed the .357 SIG to have more muzzle energy, shoot flatter while providing greater accuracy, offer more more reliable feeding due to the rounds necked-down design and provide better penetration in objects like automobile windshields.
All subjective really. More energy; less than 50ft# means little to nothing, better accuracy, most shooters, even top LEO can't ring the best accuracy out of a service round. Flat shooting; every service caliber shoots the same to 50yds +/-1", since most shooters can't take advantage of that either, also means nothing. Reliability; again, maybe. The 357sig propensity for bullet setback could be more problematic than a straight wall case when rechambering rounds.
No, the 357sig was designed around the vaunted 125gr 357mag load. It's only real reason for existing. Run the 40 w/ 155gr bullets @ 1250fps & you have a pretty close facsimily of the 357/125gr load. I would be happy w/ either, but I do like the slightly less torque/recoil of the 357sig in sim pistols.
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Last edited by fredj338; 04-10-2011 at 11:24..
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:57   #41
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BTW, I want a Glock 33 in .357 sig really bad. Hard to find though.
If you have a G27 then all you need to buy is a .357 Sig barrel. It's what I did with my G22 and pretty soon with my G27.
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Old 04-10-2011, 13:20   #42
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No, the 357sig was designed around the vaunted 125gr 357mag load. It's only real reason for existing.
And I readily admit that's my only real reason for liking it. Nothing is fail-safe, but I trust the old magnum's record with that load. Reliable feeding, looking cool, and less muzzle flip than a .40 are just icing. I wouldn't like it for those reasons alone.

Plus, I usually dislike a middle-of-the-road or split-the-difference approach to most things. I want to be on one side of the fence or the other (never say always, but usually). Were I a revolver affectionado, I would not carry a .41 mag when I could have a .357 or .44.

Last edited by Wyocop; 04-10-2011 at 15:17..
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Old 04-10-2011, 13:28   #43
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...
All subjective really. More energy; less than 50ft# means little to nothing, better accuracy, most shooters, even top LEO can't ring the best accuracy out of a service round. Flat shooting; every service caliber shoots the same to 50yds +/-1", since most shooters can't take advantage of that either, also means nothing. Reliability; again, maybe. The 357sig propensity for bullet setback could be more problematic than a straight wall case when rechambering rounds.
The Secret Service's findings were the result of objective testing which included extensive testing with hard barriers. I was asked why I re-barreled my .40 S&Ws to .357 SIG and provided the answer. I certainly wasn't trying to influence anyone in their personal defense cartridge selection - if you think .40 S&W or even .25 ACP serves you better, that's what I'd use.
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Old 04-10-2011, 13:45   #44
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The Secret Service's findings were the result of objective testing which included extensive testing with hard barriers. I was asked why I re-barreled my .40 S&Ws to .357 SIG and provided the answer. I certainly wasn't trying to influence anyone in their personal defense cartridge selection - if you think .40 S&W or even .25 ACP serves you better, that's what I'd use.
I am not denying there are slight benefits, but it is subjective. If you think a 1" diff in drop to 100yds is better or that 50ft# is better, well, it may be, but does it matter? No, not really. A few years down the road this or that LEA will move to something else based on "objective" testing. Does it mean that their previous choice is not invalid? See my point, it matters little why one LEA or another chooses a service round. Look at the "objective" testing that now has the US mil carrying a Beretta 9mm?
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Last edited by fredj338; 04-10-2011 at 17:50..
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Old 04-10-2011, 14:30   #45
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Good points being made by several of you. Don't know if I will run out and buy a GLOCK 31 tomorrow, but somewhere down the road I might get a conversion barrel for my GLOCK 23 just to try it out.

.357 SIG is the only caliber apart from the GAP that I don't shoot.
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Old 04-10-2011, 15:10   #46
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I am not denying there are skight benefits, but it is subjective. If you think a 1" diff in drop to 100yds is better or that 50ft# is better, well, it may be, but does it matter? No, not really. A few years down the road this or that LEA will move to something else based on "objective" testing. Does it mean that their previous choice is not invalid? See my point, it matters little why one LEA or another chooses a service round. Look at the "objective" testing that now has the US mil carrying a Beretta 9mm?
I think that might have been a carry-over of the McNamara Rule that it was "better to wound than kill" that led to the replacement of the 7.62 mm with the 5.56 mm. In any event, after they force issued us the M9 Barettas, the joke was, "If you have to shoot someone with that thing, make sure you shoot him a lot".
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Old 04-10-2011, 17:52   #47
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I think that might have been a carry-over of the McNamara Rule that it was "better to wound than kill" that led to the replacement of the 7.62 mm with the 5.56 mm. In any event, after they force issued us the M9 Barettas, the joke was, "If you have to shoot someone with that thing, make sure you shoot him a lot".
Maybe, but the smaller rounds make more sense on the battle field logistically speaking. You can carry more ammo & it's cheaper for the DD to buy & ship. I am sure few soldiers who have used larger roudns are extatic over the 9mm or the 223, esp w/ ball ammo.
LEA are subject to budgets too. Also with smaller male & female officers, they don't handle bigger guns & heavier loads, one reason the 10mm never made it & why the 45 is pretty much a special units choice. Many depts go with a combo that offers balance in cost & shootabilty. I think the 357sig is more shooter friendly, especially in lighter guns, but either work if the guy pulling the trigger does their job. I use/carry them all in one form or another, so I really have no particular bias.
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Old 04-10-2011, 18:10   #48
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I just it has its place however, we have been killing people with 9mm and .45acp for a while now.

For personal protection I suggest 9mm, .40cal, .45acp and keep it moving.
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Old 04-10-2011, 18:19   #49
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The 357 Sig/38 Super/357 mag all are good rounds with excellent sectional density and resulting penetration capability. The choice more of type of handgun preference, some like 1911's and 38 super, plastic and 357 sig, revolvers and 357 mag. I personally like the 357 mag the best as it does have the most power, especially in the heavier bullets as the 158 gr that I use.

No need to get rid of any of em
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Old 04-10-2011, 18:35   #50
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The 357 Sig/38 Super/357 mag all are good rounds with excellent sectional density and resulting penetration capability. The choice more of type of handgun preference, some like 1911's and 38 super, plastic and 357 sig, revolvers and 357 mag. I personally like the 357 mag the best as it does have the most power, especially in the heavier bullets as the 158 gr that I use.

No need to get rid of any of em
So does the Mossad.
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