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Old 04-09-2011, 15:08   #21
Wyocop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf View Post
I'm glad the .357sig was developed and it serves a purpose. I just wish it was a more popular round and wasn't price gouged so bad.
I hear that a lot but I recently bought 357 SIG/125 for $20.99. The .40/180 on the shelf next to it was $22.99. Both were Speer Gold Dot.
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Old 04-09-2011, 15:25   #22
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Treasury Dept. is replacing old Sigs in .357 with new S and W MP's in .40.

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Old 04-09-2011, 16:13   #23
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
Ask the Secret Service. That premier American protection agency certainly had (and has) access to many other handgun calibers to choose from when they decided on what was the best all-round choice for the task assigned to their agents.
How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.

The USBP issued the .357Mag 110JHP (with the 125JHP as an option) to replace the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+ "Treasury" load, then the 115JHP+P+ in 9mm and then the 155JHP in 40S&W, and all of these loads were highly effective on BGs. And BTW, the USBP is involved in more shootings than all the other federal agencies combined.

The Sig cartridge is a limited "nitch" cartridge that can be replaced by all the other semi-auto service calibers. It's really a "neither fish nor fowl" cartridge and it's major downfall for LE use is cost of both training and service ammunition. The 40S&W caliber is much better suited for both LE and civilian SD use because of the various bullet weights/designs available in both training and SD ammunition.
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Old 04-09-2011, 17:52   #24
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Actually the Sig is a more flexible platform. It can be loaded down to 9mm specs or loaded up beyond 40. If the 357 sig cartridge would've been devoloped 1st, there would be no 40S&W & cost would not be as lopsided.
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Old 04-09-2011, 18:06   #25
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You make some good points...

...and some I disagree with.

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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.
True, but the same could be said of any weapon or caliber.

Quote:
The USBP issued the .357Mag 110JHP (with the 125JHP as an option) to replace the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+ "Treasury" load, then the 115JHP+P+ in 9mm and then the 155JHP in 40S&W, and all of these loads were highly effective on BGs.
Of course they were. No one would say these aren't good loads.

Quote:
And BTW, the USBP is involved in more shootings than all the other federal agencies combined.
I think that's true. But a many state agencies around the country have gone to the 357 SIG and I don't know if USBP is involved in more shootings than all those state agencies combined. In North Carolina (the tread starter's home state) every state agency went to it: troopers, game wardens, alcohol agents, and state criminal investigators. The reasons usually heard are barrier penetration and duplication of the venerable .357 Magnum's ballistics with the 125 gr JHP. The old magnum round has been amply represented in police gunfights, especially highway shootings.

Quote:
The Sig cartridge is a limited "nitch" cartridge that can be replaced by all the other semi-auto service calibers.
I don't accept that as fact. See argument about duplicating the .357 125 JHP.

Quote:
It's really a "neither fish nor fowl" cartridge and it's major downfall for LE use is cost of both training and service ammunition.
Point taken with ammo costs (at least for now) but I don't buy the training part. In my experience, my G33 has less muzzle flip than my partner's G27. Both are "snappy" but the .40 snaps up and the 357 snaps back. I can make a faster follow-up shot with my G33.

Quote:
The 40S&W caliber is much better suited for both LE and civilian SD use because of the various bullet weights/designs available in both training and SD ammunition.
Civilain SD? Maybe. LE? I don't think so. At least not where barriers are likely to be a concern. The versatility argument has it's points in civilian SD but not LE given that most agencies will mandate a certain duty round.

Last edited by Wyocop; 04-10-2011 at 15:01..
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Old 04-09-2011, 20:53   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.

The USBP issued the .357Mag 110JHP (with the 125JHP as an option) to replace the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+ "Treasury" load, then the 115JHP+P+ in 9mm and then the 155JHP in 40S&W, and all of these loads were highly effective on BGs. And BTW, the USBP is involved in more shootings than all the other federal agencies combined.

The Sig cartridge is a limited "nitch" cartridge that can be replaced by all the other semi-auto service calibers. It's really a "neither fish nor fowl" cartridge and it's major downfall for LE use is cost of both training and service ammunition. The 40S&W caliber is much better suited for both LE and civilian SD use because of the various bullet weights/designs available in both training and SD ammunition.
Regarding the USSS not being in many shootings, I can't say it's their fault that no one has tried to act a fool in a way to warrant getting shot at much less hit with the round. Maybe when some crazy shiz happens to/around the President or some airplane then we can start a thread about how much the .357sig is worth and how that round saved this great nation of ours.

/take that .45acp!!
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Old 04-09-2011, 21:07   #27
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Where did you find the specs for .40 ammo? I have winchester 165 grain HP right now, not quite 1100 fps. All the .40 I've found is between 900 and 1100 fps. Energy under 500. RBCD has 77 grain .40 @2100 fps with almost 800 lbs of energy. But I've been told that ammo isn't any good.

BTW, I want a Glock 33 in .357 sig really bad. Hard to find though.

Last edited by Aaron1100us; 04-09-2011 at 21:09..
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Old 04-09-2011, 22:25   #28
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Originally Posted by Aaron1100us View Post
Where did you find the specs for .40 ammo? I have winchester 165 grain HP right now, not quite 1100 fps. All the .40 I've found is between 900 and 1100 fps. Energy under 500. RBCD has 77 grain .40 @2100 fps with almost 800 lbs of energy. But I've been told that ammo isn't any good.

BTW, I want a Glock 33 in .357 sig really bad. Hard to find though.
You have to go to the boutique companies like DoubleTap, Corbon & BuffaloBore to find the high vel 40 stuff, but they also sell hv 357sig stuff to. Really, let's just all go back to the 45acp.
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Old 04-09-2011, 22:59   #29
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I sometimes transport people who require Secret Service protection. After talking to the Secret Service Agents, I have converted two of my .40 S&Ws to .357 SIG.

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Old 04-09-2011, 23:18   #30
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^want to be a little more specific on the reasons?
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Old 04-10-2011, 00:35   #31
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^want to be a little more specific on the reasons?
The Secret Service Agents said that their agency testing showed the .357 SIG to have more muzzle energy, shoot flatter while providing greater accuracy, offer more more reliable feeding due to the rounds necked-down design and provide better penetration in objects like automobile windshields.
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Old 04-10-2011, 00:41   #32
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Most calibers probably don't "need" to exist.
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Old 04-10-2011, 00:50   #33
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I carry a G33 with Ranger T's everyday. I feel pretty damn good about that.
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Old 04-10-2011, 06:54   #34
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If my hands were too small for a SF 10mm, then I'd go with the .357
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Old 04-10-2011, 07:29   #35
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Most newbs into shooting & ballistics miss the sectional density part of any caliber. The SD of the 135gr/40 is the same as the SD of a 105gr/357. So if both bullets have the same construction, both penetrate the same. You can drive a 105gr 357sig to 1600fps, so make both a monometal HP & the 357sig wins the penetration & tissue destruction do to the higher vel.
BTW, the 357sig can handle heavier bullets. I can drive the 135grSGDB to almost 1300fps. That is slightly better than a 165gr/40 & going about 100fps faster. It's a shame that Speer doesnt' play w/ this though, it would be a good one, but better than the 125gr @ 1350fps+, probably not. You would get more penetration out of it, but it's already got a good rep for that.
Many newbs also try to use velocity and energy figures alone to decide the effectiveness of a given cartridge.

They forget things like bullet mass (weight) gained in larger bores, and therefore ignore the added momentum and penetration of heavier bullets. They compare the same light weight bullets for both calibers, and fail to recognize the full potential of the larger bore.

If you take a .308 case and neck it down to say, .243 caliber, do you end up with a superior cartridge for big game? The answer is "no". You simply end up with something different, suitable for different needs.

Same concept applies.

Daryl
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Old 04-10-2011, 07:36   #36
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I prefer it over the .40 S&W 'cause the bottleneck just looks cooler.
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:08   #37
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The Pennsylvania Game commission switched over to G31's several years ago and from what I hear they are very pleased with the round! I have several friends that are WCO's and although they have not had to use the round on BG's they have used it on wounded deer and say it is a devastating round. They also like the fact that it shoots flatter further out then many other rounds.
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:19   #38
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Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
The Secret Service Agents said that their agency testing showed the .357 SIG to have more muzzle energy, shoot flatter while providing greater accuracy, offer more more reliable feeding due to the rounds necked-down design and provide better penetration in objects like automobile windshields.

Thanks. Those all sound like good reasons to me.
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Old 04-10-2011, 10:35   #39
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Originally Posted by Wyocop View Post
I hear that a lot but I recently bought 357 SIG/125 for $20.99. The .40/180 on the shelf next to it was $22.99. Both were Speer Gold Dot.
The FMJ .357sig at local shops is usually the worst however select online retailers are bad also. I take it prices you quoted were 20 round boxes which are a huge rip off. I buy GD and HST .357sig online for $30 for 50. If your interested in .357sig buy the ammo online if you don't reload. Currently one of the online ammo companies has FMJ Lawman .357sig for $15.95 for 50 when you buy 500 rounds which isn't bad at all. The cheapest FMJ local to me is $26 for 50 at Cabelas for WWB, local gun shops want over $30 for 50.

Last edited by dkf; 04-10-2011 at 10:37..
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:15   #40
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Originally Posted by Daryl in Az View Post
Many newbs also try to use velocity and energy figures alone to decide the effectiveness of a given cartridge.

They forget things like bullet mass (weight) gained in larger bores, and therefore ignore the added momentum and penetration of heavier bullets. They compare the same light weight bullets for both calibers, and fail to recognize the full potential of the larger bore.

If you take a .308 case and neck it down to say, .243 caliber, do you end up with a superior cartridge for big game? The answer is "no". You simply end up with something different, suitable for different needs.

Same concept applies.

Daryl
Not really Daryl. Bore dia matters, especially when you are talking small bore vs medium vs large. SD also matters, so does bullet mass, so does bullet counstruction. What I was trying to point out the the OP was his lack of understanding that vel & mass alone don't make up for lack of SD or bullet construction. If you are trying to get anyone to believe the 1mm larger bullet makes up for the lower SD, then you would be wrong, it's been proven many, many times over.
Quote:
The Secret Service Agents said that their agency testing showed the .357 SIG to have more muzzle energy, shoot flatter while providing greater accuracy, offer more more reliable feeding due to the rounds necked-down design and provide better penetration in objects like automobile windshields.
All subjective really. More energy; less than 50ft# means little to nothing, better accuracy, most shooters, even top LEO can't ring the best accuracy out of a service round. Flat shooting; every service caliber shoots the same to 50yds +/-1", since most shooters can't take advantage of that either, also means nothing. Reliability; again, maybe. The 357sig propensity for bullet setback could be more problematic than a straight wall case when rechambering rounds.
No, the 357sig was designed around the vaunted 125gr 357mag load. It's only real reason for existing. Run the 40 w/ 155gr bullets @ 1250fps & you have a pretty close facsimily of the 357/125gr load. I would be happy w/ either, but I do like the slightly less torque/recoil of the 357sig in sim pistols.
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Last edited by fredj338; 04-10-2011 at 11:24..
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