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Old 02-19-2011, 16:26   #81
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Now taking donations of all GT unwanted uppers DI or Piston. Thanks for all of the good info. I'm now looking for what company has all the features I want to go with.
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Old 02-20-2011, 13:59   #82
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Originally Posted by pleaforwar View Post
Mix,
Your desire to have an uber-clean chamber isn't bad by any means. It is, however, a product of an archaic cleaning regimen produced by military standards. I was the same way after my EAS from the Corps. I thought all rifles needed to pass a white glove test and anything more than a thin film of CLP meant certain doom.

Years later I have found the opposite to be truthful. The only clean chamber (by military standards) on any of my rifles is from a brand new unfired LMT. Once I get around to using that rifle I won't focus on the chamber, I will focus on a maintenance regimen (lubricate generously, wipe down/bore snake every 1k-2k rounds) that has proven successful for my application.

Cheers,
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I totally agree. I train my soldiers to do a wipe down, swab the barrel, lightly lube the upper, lightly lube the BCG, and a couple of drops on the bolt and smear with finger. I don't do a white glove test on my soldiers' weapon. I just make sure it's properly lubed and wiped clean. I also make sure outside is wiped clean before put up in the arms room.

Back to the original post. I also own both a DI and piston gun. It's an LWRC M6A2 and a RRA Entry. I prefer my LWRC. My LWRC has been running flawless in the 3K or so rounds I have through it. My RRA has been near flawless in the approximately 6K rounds through it. Before I got my LWRC I took a carbine course here in the northwest. As always, when I shoot a course or a match, I like to test my weapon and see how it performs when neglected. After the first day of shooting, I left it as is. No cleaning. At the start of the second day, in cold muggy, rainy weather, my first to rounds shot failed to extract. Both times I had to use a cleaning rod to force the spent case out of the chamber. I cleaned the barrel and chamber and put some lube on the bolt, and it ran fine for the rest of the second day.

That's my experience so far with a piston vs DI gun. Honestly, I prefer my LWRC mainly because it's an all around better gun. Not because it's a piston, but because it has a better barrel, more accurate, I like the Vltor stock better, and LWRC uses all around better parts. Now, if I had a Noveske or some other high end DI gun, it would be tough for me to decide on a go to weapon when comparing it to my LWRC. It would probably come down to what "feels" better.

What I do like about piston guns vs di guns is the fact that it stays lubed even after a rough day of shooting. Last summer I shot a 2 day tac rifle match. It was hot and dusty. Over the course of the match I shot in excess of 500 rounds. Then, I shot another tac rifle match on the third day which put another 100 rounds or so through my LWRC. At the end of the third day, the bolt and BCG were still wet. This experience, to me, makes me lean toward piston guns. I think that a gun that stays lubed will be less prone to excessive wear and more likely to run reliably. I don't have hard data or evidence to prove this, but it's my opinion.

If anyone has a high end di gun like a Noveske to give me, I'd be happy to shoot it and compare it to my LWRC . I swear I can do it without bias.
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Old 02-20-2011, 16:59   #83
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Using the proper lube will keep a DI BCG wet for a long time. I took a class last summer and put 1100 rds through it with no cleaning and no additional oil shooting mixed ammo to include Wolf. Lube was Synthetic Motor Oil It doesn't burn off and stays put.....also keeps carbon from sticking to anything so clean up is a breeze.

I routinely go 700-1000 rds between cleanings for my BCM with no issues.
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Old 02-21-2011, 07:09   #84
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Simply put it, the fact that the " DI guns eats from the same hole it craps in " is not a life and death deal breaker to most civilians shooters, even in a class. This has been a source of controversial for a long time with the DI guns. Everyone has a "special lube" to use, even Pat Rogers recommended vagisil. Explain carrying vagisil in your pocket to your wife! The piston guns corrects this and gives the gun's bolt control group and chamber area a much longer time between cleanings. Something like 15,000 plus rounds between cleanings. The Marines buying the HK416 is not something they did without testing and forethought. Why would the Marines want an inferior weapon? We are talking Marines! The Marines, including the cooks,the supply and admin personnel shoot their guns in rain/snow/heat/etc. They expend more rounds in all climate conditions than most. Whatever the reasons given for the Marine's purchase of the HK416, I think, it is an end around/creative supply method for them to get the HK416 piston guns in the inventory/supply system for use in the squads.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:02   #85
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Originally Posted by jbremount View Post
Simply put it, the fact that the " DI guns eats from the same hole it craps in " is not a life and death deal breaker to most civilians shooters, even in a class. This has been a source of controversial for a long time with the DI guns. Everyone has a "special lube" to use, even Pat Rogers recommended vagisil. Explain carrying vagisil in your pocket to your wife! The piston guns corrects this and gives the gun's bolt control group and chamber area a much longer time between cleanings. Something like 15,000 plus rounds between cleanings. The Marines buying the HK416 is not something they did without testing and forethought. Why would the Marines want an inferior weapon? We are talking Marines! The Marines, including the cooks,the supply and admin personnel shoot their guns in rain/snow/heat/etc. They expend more rounds in all climate conditions than most. Whatever the reasons given for the Marine's purchase of the HK416, I think, it is an end around/creative supply method for them to get the HK416 piston guns in the inventory/supply system for use in the squads.



Okay, a couple things to correct:
1) I have trained with Pat Rogers twice and have never heard him recommend using Vagisil. He has said you can use it in a pinch, just like you can use urine in a pinch to lube a carbine. The only lube I have EVER heard him recommend is Slip-2000 products.
2) Don't know if you were in the Corps, but I was, and your conclusion that all Marines shoot a lot is flat out false. Maybe for the MARSOC guys, but hell, I was SAW qualified and never even shot a SAW until I was released from active duty.

Not trying to be a d***, just being honest.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:32   #86
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Originally Posted by pleaforwar View Post


Okay, a couple things to correct:
1) I have trained with Pat Rogers twice and have never heard him recommend using Vagisil. He has said you can use it in a pinch, just like you can use urine in a pinch to lube a carbine. The only lube I have EVER heard him recommend is Slip-2000 products.
2) Don't know if you were in the Corps, but I was, and your conclusion that all Marines shoot a lot is flat out false. Maybe for the MARSOC guys, but hell, I was SAW qualified and never even shot a SAW until I was released from active duty.

Not trying to be a d***, just being honest.

In a pinch....run to the drug store and buy Vagisil? Ok.....What is this article by Pat Rogers saying? Who approved of the pictures/etc:http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf

Page 5,,,...this is quoted:

I have used every type of lube imaginable,
going from WD-40 (especially good
when you have a dirty gun), to 3 in 1 oil,
suntan lotion, butter and even Vagisil—
don’t laugh, it works.
I may not want to use any of them for
the long haul, but for a quick fix, it beats
having a non-functioning gun.



So, in a pinch, after about 700-1000 rounds when the gun starts getting sluggish......use vagisil...or the butter...or suntan lotion? Whatever is in your pocket you use? How do the vagisil get in your pocket? Since it there, the picture and capture shows you how to use the vagisil.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:11   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbremount View Post
In a pinch....run to the drug store and buy Vagisil? Ok.....What is this article by Pat Rogers saying? Who approved of the pictures/etc:http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf

Page 5,,,...this is quoted:

I have used every type of lube imaginable,
going from WD-40 (especially good
when you have a dirty gun), to 3 in 1 oil,
suntan lotion, butter and even Vagisiló
donít laugh, it works.
I may not want to use any of them for
the long haul, but for a quick fix, it beats
having a non-functioning gun.



So, in a pinch, after about 700-1000 rounds when the gun starts getting sluggish......use vagisil...or the butter...or suntan lotion? Whatever is in your pocket you use? How do the vagisil get in your pocket? Since it there, the picture and capture shows you how to use the vagisil.
It's beyond obvious, to anyone with two brain cells to rub together, that Pat isn't recommending vagisil as a lube. Hes just throwing out bizarre examples to show that almost any liquid will work, for a while.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:21   #88
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Jbremount,

Damned be me, I could of sworn I saw a real life Pat Rogers, in person, not only once but twice, talking about his recommendations for lubrication and what will work in, you got it, a pinch. Interesting how he was handing out Slip EWL instead of Vagisil.

So, how many of Pat's courses have you taken Sir?
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:03   #89
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Hey, I did not write the article or take the picture. I did not create the caption with instructions on use of vigisal to keep the AR running. Did you guys read the article? This article has been out since Dec 2006.

So, you read the article and make of it whatever you wish. You can pretend it's a bottle of suntan lotion in the picture.
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:11   #90
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Jesus Christ, so much better stuff to do today.

Being that you avoided my question, I'll go ahead and accept that you have never met Pat in real life, taken any of his courses, or even spoke to him directly about anything.

That's alright JBremount, you go run Vagisil on your rifle because "Pat Rogers recommends it".
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:26   #91
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Jesus Christ, so much better stuff to do today.

Being that you avoided my question, I'll go ahead and accept that you have never met Pat in real life, taken any of his courses, or even spoke to him directly about anything.

That's alright JBremount, you go run Vagisil on your rifle because "Pat Rogers recommends it".

First, I do not use women lubricants like Vagisil in my guns. Period. I will never go into a drug store and buy Vagisil. Never, ...will not happen. I am commenting on the article. I did not write the article. The written word is permanent no matter how you spin it after the fact.

I am only saying that someone you obvious know, has written an article saying you can use vagisil, with a picture and instructions.
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Old 02-21-2011, 13:41   #92
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Been away from this thread for a couple days now and I see it has not made any positive progression? lol. Gotta love these DI vs piston debates.

I am a self confessed piston guy but I would love to have a FailZero coated bolt & BCG DI and coat it with some Slip EWL or Mobil 1 for good measure. I bet that combo would go a long way without the oil burning off and less carbon build up in the star chamber?
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Old 02-21-2011, 22:28   #93
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Out of Vagisil at the moment, will KY suffice in a pinch?

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Old 02-22-2011, 05:01   #94
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I have no use for a piston gun whose bolt/bcg does not ride on steel rails. Plus, most of my shooting is done with a can on the end, which negates the over rated cleanliness factor most piston guys seem to "need".
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:54   #95
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So does your oil not burn off? I shot Surefires demo rifle with their new can at Shot Show and it burned off its oil and we needed to stop shooting to re-oil the bolt. They eventually began to experience malfunctions which they did not want us media to see I am sure. For the record it did shoot alot of ammo before it needed it, but it didn't go all day without re-oiling..

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Old 02-22-2011, 19:17   #96
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So does your oil not burn off? I shot Surefires demo rifle with their new can at Shot Show and it burned off its oil and we needed to stop shooting to re-oil the bolt. They eventually began to experience malfunctions which they did not want us media to see I am sure. For the record it did shoot alot of ammo before it needed it, but it didn't go all day without re-oiling..
After a ~1000 rounds, I need to apply more. That's way more rounds than a load out. It's a carbine, not a SAW. A vastly over rated problem but it is a good question. With a piston, the oil still needs to be applied due to the amount of carbon blowback from the chamber while running suppressed as evidenced by my buddy have his rate of fire becoming just as sluggish under the same conditions that day.

As an aside, I keep a small bottle of machine gunners lube in my ACS. It's a non issue for me.
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Old 02-22-2011, 19:21   #97
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Out of Vagisil at the moment, will KY suffice in a pinch?
A buddy of mine used piss once while he was in the sandbox. Coincidentally, he said it smelled just like he was shooting wolf ammo. Lol
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