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Old 02-15-2011, 11:18   #61
Gunnut 45/454
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So that video proves what? I say it shows a dirty weapon/ lack of lube compounded by bad mags! I wonder if they were those plastic Pmags!!! Yep those were Pmags and he kept stuffing the same F'd up mag back in!!

I've seen a torture test of the M4 DI I still haven't seen how many rounds it takes to kill a piston gun- don't happen to have that video do you? I'll bet the forearm bursts into flame well before the 500 round mark! Just like a AK will!
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Old 02-15-2011, 11:20   #62
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That was a good link.
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:06   #63
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You will wear a extractor out or experiance spring failure before carbon buildup will cause a failure.
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Vietnam failures were from a number of changes ie powder type, no chrome, and promoting it as self cleaning. It does not matter what type of rifle you have, if you dont clean it it will fail.
I'm aware of those failures. My response is directed to your claim above.
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:41   #64
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I'm aware of those failures. My response is directed to your claim above.
Have you not researched the early failures of the M16 in Vietnam? The powder was changed to a ball powder from its original, they were not chrome lined chambers or bores, it was touted as self cleaning, they didnt even have cleaning equipment at first. Mix non chrome with dirty chambers and bores, mix in the humidity and you have serious problems over night.
The extractor is a known high wear, weak part of the M16/AR rifles, why do you think there has been so many upgrades to it? Thats a problem that plauges both DI's and Pistons.
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:45   #65
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I am not a piston fanboy and an DI hater... not at all. I love the 20" A2 I was issued back in the day and I cant remember having hardly any malfunction with it to be honest?

I am a hater of fouling and heat in the tight tolerances of the star chamber and I am a hater of fouling under the extractor...thats all.

The problem I have with running my DI wet is that over lubrication works great, but its a dirt magnet which we all know isnt friendly to the tight tolerances of the star chamber. I live and play in the Nevada desert btw.

And on the flip side if you lightly lube it, the heat from the direct impingement dumping directly on the bolt and BCG often times burns off that lube and all the issues of a dry AR start to occur.

As for piston guns...I dont have love for all of them either. I dont like the "spring cup" design. That design has already broken on carbine courses. I also dont like the the Ruger SR556 with its non user serviceable piston return spring and the use of roll pins. I also dont like reciprocating charging handles that can get hung up on personal gear. There are lots of things I dont like about pistons guns.

To be fair I am very intrigued by coatings such as nickle boron and NP3. If it lives up to its claims of reducing heat and drastically reducing carbon fouling from sticking to the bolt lugs, star chamber and extractor...then it might be a better option for dealing with heat and fouling than a piston system?




As for Pleaforwar's post...absolutely spot on comment brother. I am actually a member of M4carbine and lightfighter.

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Old 02-15-2011, 12:55   #66
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mixflip
So that video proves what? I say it shows a dirty weapon/ lack of lube compounded by bad mags! I wonder if they were those plastic Pmags!!! Yep those were Pmags and he kept stuffing the same F'd up mag back in!!

I've seen a torture test of the M4 DI I still haven't seen how many rounds it takes to kill a piston gun- don't happen to have that video do you? I'll bet the forearm bursts into flame well before the 500 round mark! Just like a AK will!
Crane Surface Warfare has destroyed, both M16's and Ak's both will will stop at about 900-1000 rounds continuous, same went for piston powered M16's, The gas tube went down on the DI's the pistons smoked the hand guard to a point where th AKs caught fire and the Piston AR's couldnt be held onto. When the pistons cooled they siezed. The problem here is though trying to use any op system as a SAW. The Marines are going to tey it with a HK 416 as a replacemnt or suppliment to the M249. Without a quick change barrel your going to have to plan on throwing out allot of destroyed 416's. The Israelis discovered this with their Galils, they tried to use them as SAW's and destroyed the recievers from excessive heat. Colt had the right idea when they built the M231 Port Firing Weapon and their M16 LMG by using open bolts, and a much heavier barrel on the M16 LMG, but in the case of the M16 LMG it failed for not having a quick change barrel, and being restriced to magazine use. Ares Shrike imo would be the way to go if we plan on keeping the M16 platform in our inventory.

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Old 02-15-2011, 12:56   #67
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Any particular sites with these AAR's?

Thanks
I won't list them here, but I will recommend attending a course from any of the top schools out there (Magpul, EAG, Tricon, Grey Group, etc). Go to one of these courses and they will recommend a good site to discuss such things.
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Old 02-15-2011, 13:14   #68
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I'm aware of those failures. My response is directed to your claim above.
I have yet to see a rifle go down on the range from being "dirty" or "fouled". Extractor issues are more common, both with the DI and piston system.

Following is an excellent article on the topic written by Mike Pannone (prior Force Recon and Army SF). http://www.defensereview.com/the-big...m4-unreliable/

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The problem I have with running my DI wet is that over lubrication works great, but its a dirt magnet which we all know isnt friendly to the tight tolerances of the star chamber. I live and play in the Nevada desert btw.

As for Pleaforwar's post...absolutely spot on comment brother. I am actually a member of M4carbine and lightfighter.
Thanks for the compliment Mix.

I do have one thing to mention though, I recommend you try running your BCG wet. Will it get dirty? Yep. Will it cause malfunctions because you live in the desert? Not in my experience. I live in AZ myself.

Cheers,
Dan
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Old 02-15-2011, 16:08   #69
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pleaforwar, I do run my DI guns wet for reliability and they do run pretty much flawless when I stay up on my oiling intervals. That being said, that is one of the reasons why I bought my Model 8 because I can generously lube it up before I head out and the lube doesnt burn off all day. At the end of the day its still wet and clean which is a huge selling point for me since I really dont want to have to be on an oiling schedule all day.

Of course I am not a hard core shooter going through 1000's of rounds a day or shooting select fire so I dont need alot of features that the hard core guys need. I know many AR's can go all day without a drop of additional oil but that has not been my personal experience and thats all I can go off of right now. My Model 8 addresses my needs and I cant complain. (not yet anyway lol)

I am thinking of building a 20" DI with a failzero treatment to do a DI vs piston video. I think that would be alot of fun. In a way I am rooting for the DI with nickle boron since I do have fond memories of my M16A2.
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Old 02-15-2011, 17:21   #70
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Mix,
What type of lube are you using? I only lube at the beginning of the day and it has always worked for me. I use SLIP EWL or MPRO LPX, but have also used Weapon's Shield and Militec. Products like LCP, Breakfree, and Remoil have never lasted for me and I avoid them at all costs.
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Old 02-15-2011, 20:24   #71
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Mix,
What type of lube are you using? I only lube at the beginning of the day and it has always worked for me. I use SLIP EWL or MPRO LPX, but have also used Weapon's Shield and Militec. Products like LCP, Breakfree, and Remoil have never lasted for me and I avoid them at all costs.
I love SLIP, but have used Mobil One in a pinch, IMO its better than Break Free
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Old 02-15-2011, 23:40   #72
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I too run mine in a desert environment -High Desert of Idaho! I still run them wet, though I don't go crawling though the dirt any more then I have to on hunts! Dirt crawling days are over! All I do for cleaning is 3 swipes with a bore snake - wipe the BCG down an relube! Thats it! Not one malf! Only malf I've had was a bad lip on a GI mag- tweaked the lip good to go!
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Old 02-16-2011, 00:03   #73
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I don't know if it was the same video I saw but I watched the one they smoked the M4!
I thought it was sick watching the barrel just flop down! What a waste!
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:08   #74
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Mix,What type of lube are you using?
Hoppes, maybe thats my problem? I'll get me some SLIP and see how thing go?


Gunnut, I saw a video where the guy melts the gas tube on a select fire M4...and I too thought that was a waste. The gun was never designed to me a "machine gun".

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Old 02-16-2011, 11:56   #75
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This is why I don't worry about it as I'm not going into firefights on a daily/hourly basis anymore! When or if I ever have to pull out the AR for an SD/HD situation it will do it's job if I'm still capable of doing mine!
And when the SHTF I'll not sitting on my arse waiting for the fight -I'll be taking it to whom ever wants the fight!
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Old 02-16-2011, 12:49   #76
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I agree. I dont think there are any arguments that any DI or piston AR cant perform in a 5 minute or less (statistically speaking) gun battle in your home. My sole reason for choosing my M8 was solely based on my desire to not have to clean that dang star chamber at the end of the day. Thats it period. Any other benefit the gun has is just icing on the cake for me because thats the one and only feature that I cared about was the clean star chamber.

I am not claiming that the DI system is not capable of shooting 1000's of rounds flawlessly all day. I know DI guns are amazing guns but I just wanted that "one" feature that DI guns could not give me....and that was simply a clean star chamber at the end of the day. Nothing more nothing less.

I never said I crawl in dirt or expect to be getting into "firefights" on a daily/hourly basis? I have already stated that I am not hard core so in reality I probably dont even need mil-spec top tier parts to do the low level of shooting I do? All I wanted was that "one" feature that my M8 gives me and for some reason nobody can wrap their heads around that fact? Why is a clean star chamber such a bad feature to desire?

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Old 02-16-2011, 13:45   #77
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Mix,
Your desire to have an uber-clean chamber isn't bad by any means. It is, however, a product of an archaic cleaning regimen produced by military standards. I was the same way after my EAS from the Corps. I thought all rifles needed to pass a white glove test and anything more than a thin film of CLP meant certain doom.

Years later I have found the opposite to be truthful. The only clean chamber (by military standards) on any of my rifles is from a brand new unfired LMT. Once I get around to using that rifle I won't focus on the chamber, I will focus on a maintenance regimen (lubricate generously, wipe down/bore snake every 1k-2k rounds) that has proven successful for my application.

The reason people argue quality parts against lesser brands is because the price difference isn't tremendous. The beautiful thing about AR's is that even if a guality production rifle is out of the budget, you can allocate the funds over time to build a great rifle.

Take my course rifle for example. There is no way I could afford the rifle brand new. Rather than buying it new I built it over a period of four months.

Specs-
Vltor MUR upper
DD M4 12" rail
Sabre Defence 1/7 16" middy
LMT Enhanced BCG
LMT complete lower
SOPMOD stock
Aimpoint CompM4s
TD battlegrip
Troy BUIS
Addax Phalanx FH
Streamlight TLR-1

Black Rifle Forum
(photo from a Trident Concepts Advanced Carbine Course)

Keep in mind, I can wrap my mind around why you want the feature your Stag rifle has. I'm not saying you are in the wrong for desiring that feature, all I am saying is that through all my training and shooting I have yet to find a legitimate need for focusing on the cleanliness aspect.

Cheers,
Dan
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Old 02-16-2011, 13:45   #78
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Hoppes, maybe thats my problem? I'll get me some SLIP and see how thing go?


Gunnut, I saw a video where the guy melts the gas tube on a select fire M4...and I too thought that was a waste. The gun was never designed to me a "machine gun".

Man that was a painful video to watch.

I settled on a Colt 6920, which is obviously a DI gun. One of my main reasons is that pound for pound quality, you get more with a DI gun. You can get a great deal on a piston gun, but it won't be as well built, or as well inspected as a DI gun. (Colt) I have no issues with a gun that needs to be lubed to run. (see avatar). I like to clean my guns, and I even completely break down my Glocks to every last part to clean the, except the slide lock lever and the magazine catch.

Black Rifle Forum
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:49   #79
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Mix,
Your desire to have an uber-clean chamber isn't bad by any means. It is, however, a product of an archaic cleaning regimen produced by military standards. I was the same way after my EAS from the Corps. I thought all rifles needed to pass a white glove test and anything more than a thin film of CLP meant certain doom.

Years later I have found the opposite to be truthful. The only clean chamber (by military standards) on any of my rifles is from a brand new unfired LMT. Once I get around to using that rifle I won't focus on the chamber, I will focus on a maintenance regimen (lubricate generously, wipe down/bore snake every 1k-2k rounds) that has proven successful for my application.

The reason people argue quality parts against lesser brands is because the price difference isn't tremendous. The beautiful thing about AR's is that even if a guality production rifle is out of the budget, you can allocate the funds over time to build a great rifle.

Take my course rifle for example. There is no way I could afford the rifle brand new. Rather than buying it new I built it over a period of four months.

Specs-
Vltor MUR upper
DD M4 12" rail
Sabre Defence 1/7 16" middy
LMT Enhanced BCG
LMT complete lower
SOPMOD stock
Aimpoint CompM4s
TD battlegrip
Troy BUIS
Addax Phalanx FH
Streamlight TLR-1

Black Rifle Forum
(photo from a Trident Concepts Advanced Carbine Course)

Keep in mind, I can wrap my mind around why you want the feature your Stag rifle has. I'm not saying you are in the wrong for desiring that feature, all I am saying is that through all my training and shooting I have yet to find a legitimate need for focusing on the cleanliness aspect.

Cheers,
Dan
Nice setup, pretty close to mine, except I did a LaRue rail.
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Old 02-18-2011, 21:41   #80
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All this writing over DI vs Piston. Just go out and buy one of each and enjoy life. Two very good ones are Daniel Defense and LWRC.
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