[Longbow]

Originally Posted by mstennes

You will wear a extractor out or experiance spring failure before carbon buildup will cause a failure.

I call B.S.

Reports of failures from Vietnam to the present is bacause of gunk build up, not extractor failures. Keeping the bolt/chamber area clean is always the issue.

[mstennes]

Originally Posted by Longbow

I call B.S.

Reports of failures from Vietnam to the present is bacause of gunk build up, not extractor failures. Keeping the bolt/chamber area clean is always the issue.

Vietnam failures were from a number of changes ie powder type, no chrome, and promoting it as self cleaning. It does not matter what type of rifle you have, if you dont clean it it will fail.

[mstennes]

Originally Posted by mixflip

Is that a guaranteed fact?

Look if you want to play that game then I could say that you will die of old age before a gas piston BCG or op rod breaks?

This will just go round and round all day if we dont use facts. (btw, I think your spell check is not working lol. I noticed you spelling is distracting, no offense.)

Is my master plan working???? LOL Seriously it can, go forever, something else though allot of rails dont fit pistons.

[mixflip]

I agree, rails are hard to find (at the moment) for piston guns. Luckily for me, I dont even like quad rails in the first place lol. I have done the lights lasers bipods thing and its just useless and way to heavy. Over the years I have noticed that I personally dont need aluminum quad rails aka cheese graters lol. I always ended up slapping on a whole bunch of panel covers. Also aluminum absorbs heat and retains it longer which some times forced me to wear gloves. I hate wearing gloves in the desert!!!

That being said, I have grown to love my Magpul MOE hand guards. They are super light weight, resistant to heat, resistant to cold, resistant to chemicals. I can ad very tiny picatinny rails for a light or a grip and be done with it. No panels to mess with. Not quite KISS but not quite tacticool either. At 6lbs 9oz I really cant complain about weight. Ad in the fact that I have a very clean chamber at the end of the day and I am pretty much in heaven! Did I ever mention that I am old and lazy and cant stand cleaning that dang star chamber???

[pleaforwar]

Originally Posted by Captains1911

Actually, just keep it lubed and you won't have any problems. One of the most common misconceptions regarding the AR platform is that they must be clean to be reliable. It just isn't true. A very dirty rifle will run reliably as long as it's wet.

Yep. I have never cleaned my latest AR to the draconian standards of the NRA/military, and in the 3 courses (4000 +/-) rounds I have never had a firearm induced failure (couple of magazine and ammo failures).

OP: I own both piston and DI AR's, and I truly believe they both have their merits. One is a proven platform that will perform well under most circumstances, the other is an evolution of the AR and offers advantages to suppressed and/or SBR shooting. The problem you will run into with this type of discussion in mediums like online forums is that, for the most part, comments are going to support only what type of rifle the member owns. This creates the koolaid atmosphere and it's damn near impossible to have an intellectual discussion on the subject.

My recommendation to you is that you find a site with an extensive training forum and read the AAR's from various courses. Most will mention if a particular weapon system has failed. After reading multiple reports you may see a pattern with a particular brand and decide you don't want to go that route.

[Bill Lumberg]

Piston guns are head and shoulders above the rest. I have been issued both. Piston guns require less maintenance, clean faster, and tend to have less wear and breakage. Rails and accessories are easy to find. Our POF's run flawlessly.

[ScrapMetal]

Originally Posted by pleaforwar

Yep. I have never cleaned my latest AR to the draconian standards of the NRA/military, and in the 3 courses (4000 +/-) rounds I have never had a firearm induced failure (couple of magazine and ammo failures).

OP: I own both piston and DI AR's, and I truly believe they both have their merits. One is a proven platform that will perform well under most circumstances, the other is an evolution of the AR and offers advantages to suppressed and/or SBR shooting. The problem you will run into with this type of discussion in mediums like online forums is that, for the most part, comments are going to support only what type of rifle the member owns. This creates the koolaid atmosphere and it's damn near impossible to have an intellectual discussion on the subject.

My recommendation to you is that you find a site with an extensive training forum and read the AAR's from various courses. Most will mention if a particular weapon system has failed. After reading multiple reports you may see a pattern with a particular brand and decide you don't want to go that route.

very good post!

[wolf19r]

My recommendation to you is that you find a site with an extensive training forum and read the AAR's from various courses. Most will mention if a particular weapon system has failed. After reading multiple reports you may see a pattern with a particular brand and decide you don't want to go that route.[/QUOTE]

Any particular sites with these AAR's?

Thanks

[mstennes]

Originally Posted by pleaforwar

Yep. I have never cleaned my latest AR to the draconian standards of the NRA/military, and in the 3 courses (4000 +/-) rounds I have never had a firearm induced failure (couple of magazine and ammo failures).

OP: I own both piston and DI AR's, and I truly believe they both have their merits. One is a proven platform that will perform well under most circumstances, the other is an evolution of the AR and offers advantages to suppressed and/or SBR shooting. The problem you will run into with this type of discussion in mediums like online forums is that, for the most part, comments are going to support only what type of rifle the member owns. This creates the koolaid atmosphere and it's damn near impossible to have an intellectual discussion on the subject.

My recommendation to you is that you find a site with an extensive training forum and read the AAR's from various courses. Most will mention if a particular weapon system has failed. After reading multiple reports you may see a pattern with a particular brand and decide you don't want to go that route.

Very good post indeed, I have come to the conclusion, that allot of AR owners are experts because they heard this or read that. Heres a link most if not all will find very interesting.
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vsp...hy14_oct10.pdf

[mstennes]

Originally Posted by pleaforwar

My recommendation to you is that you find a site with an extensive training forum and read the AAR's from various courses. Most will mention if a particular weapon system has failed. After reading multiple reports you may see a pattern with a particular brand and decide you don't want to go that route.

That and look and see what real world trainers, end users are using who go in harms way, or teach those who do.

[Gunnut 45/454]

mixflip
So that video proves what? I say it shows a dirty weapon/ lack of lube compounded by bad mags! I wonder if they were those plastic Pmags!!! Yep those were Pmags and he kept stuffing the same F'd up mag back in!!

I've seen a torture test of the M4 DI I still haven't seen how many rounds it takes to kill a piston gun- don't happen to have that video do you? I'll bet the forearm bursts into flame well before the 500 round mark! Just like a AK will!

[wolf19r]

That was a good link.

[Longbow]

Originally Posted by mstennes

You will wear a extractor out or experiance spring failure before carbon buildup will cause a failure.

Originally Posted by mstennes

Vietnam failures were from a number of changes ie powder type, no chrome, and promoting it as self cleaning. It does not matter what type of rifle you have, if you dont clean it it will fail.

I'm aware of those failures. My response is directed to your claim above.

[mstennes]

Originally Posted by Longbow

I'm aware of those failures. My response is directed to your claim above.

Have you not researched the early failures of the M16 in Vietnam? The powder was changed to a ball powder from its original, they were not chrome lined chambers or bores, it was touted as self cleaning, they didnt even have cleaning equipment at first. Mix non chrome with dirty chambers and bores, mix in the humidity and you have serious problems over night.
The extractor is a known high wear, weak part of the M16/AR rifles, why do you think there has been so many upgrades to it? Thats a problem that plauges both DI's and Pistons.

[mixflip]

I am not a piston fanboy and an DI hater... not at all. I love the 20" A2 I was issued back in the day and I cant remember having hardly any malfunction with it to be honest?

I am a hater of fouling and heat in the tight tolerances of the star chamber and I am a hater of fouling under the extractor...thats all.

The problem I have with running my DI wet is that over lubrication works great, but its a dirt magnet which we all know isnt friendly to the tight tolerances of the star chamber. I live and play in the Nevada desert btw.

And on the flip side if you lightly lube it, the heat from the direct impingement dumping directly on the bolt and BCG often times burns off that lube and all the issues of a dry AR start to occur.

As for piston guns...I dont have love for all of them either. I dont like the "spring cup" design. That design has already broken on carbine courses. I also dont like the the Ruger SR556 with its non user serviceable piston return spring and the use of roll pins. I also dont like reciprocating charging handles that can get hung up on personal gear. There are lots of things I dont like about pistons guns.

To be fair I am very intrigued by coatings such as nickle boron and NP3. If it lives up to its claims of reducing heat and drastically reducing carbon fouling from sticking to the bolt lugs, star chamber and extractor...then it might be a better option for dealing with heat and fouling than a piston system?




As for Pleaforwar's post...absolutely spot on comment brother. I am actually a member of M4carbine and lightfighter.

[mstennes]

Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454

mixflip
So that video proves what? I say it shows a dirty weapon/ lack of lube compounded by bad mags! I wonder if they were those plastic Pmags!!! Yep those were Pmags and he kept stuffing the same F'd up mag back in!!

I've seen a torture test of the M4 DI I still haven't seen how many rounds it takes to kill a piston gun- don't happen to have that video do you? I'll bet the forearm bursts into flame well before the 500 round mark! Just like a AK will!

Crane Surface Warfare has destroyed, both M16's and Ak's both will will stop at about 900-1000 rounds continuous, same went for piston powered M16's, The gas tube went down on the DI's the pistons smoked the hand guard to a point where th AKs caught fire and the Piston AR's couldnt be held onto. When the pistons cooled they siezed. The problem here is though trying to use any op system as a SAW. The Marines are going to tey it with a HK 416 as a replacemnt or suppliment to the M249. Without a quick change barrel your going to have to plan on throwing out allot of destroyed 416's. The Israelis discovered this with their Galils, they tried to use them as SAW's and destroyed the recievers from excessive heat. Colt had the right idea when they built the M231 Port Firing Weapon and their M16 LMG by using open bolts, and a much heavier barrel on the M16 LMG, but in the case of the M16 LMG it failed for not having a quick change barrel, and being restriced to magazine use. Ares Shrike imo would be the way to go if we plan on keeping the M16 platform in our inventory.

[pleaforwar]

Originally Posted by wolf19r

Any particular sites with these AAR's?

Thanks

I won't list them here, but I will recommend attending a course from any of the top schools out there (Magpul, EAG, Tricon, Grey Group, etc). Go to one of these courses and they will recommend a good site to discuss such things.

[pleaforwar]

Originally Posted by Longbow

I'm aware of those failures. My response is directed to your claim above.

I have yet to see a rifle go down on the range from being "dirty" or "fouled". Extractor issues are more common, both with the DI and piston system.

Following is an excellent article on the topic written by Mike Pannone (prior Force Recon and Army SF). http://www.defensereview.com/the-big...m4-unreliable/

Originally Posted by mixflip

The problem I have with running my DI wet is that over lubrication works great, but its a dirt magnet which we all know isnt friendly to the tight tolerances of the star chamber. I live and play in the Nevada desert btw.

As for Pleaforwar's post...absolutely spot on comment brother. I am actually a member of M4carbine and lightfighter.

Thanks for the compliment Mix.

I do have one thing to mention though, I recommend you try running your BCG wet. Will it get dirty? Yep. Will it cause malfunctions because you live in the desert? Not in my experience. I live in AZ myself.

Cheers,
Dan

[mixflip]

pleaforwar, I do run my DI guns wet for reliability and they do run pretty much flawless when I stay up on my oiling intervals. That being said, that is one of the reasons why I bought my Model 8 because I can generously lube it up before I head out and the lube doesnt burn off all day. At the end of the day its still wet and clean which is a huge selling point for me since I really dont want to have to be on an oiling schedule all day.

Of course I am not a hard core shooter going through 1000's of rounds a day or shooting select fire so I dont need alot of features that the hard core guys need. I know many AR's can go all day without a drop of additional oil but that has not been my personal experience and thats all I can go off of right now. My Model 8 addresses my needs and I cant complain. (not yet anyway lol)

I am thinking of building a 20" DI with a failzero treatment to do a DI vs piston video. I think that would be alot of fun. In a way I am rooting for the DI with nickle boron since I do have fond memories of my M16A2.

[pleaforwar]

Mix,
What type of lube are you using? I only lube at the beginning of the day and it has always worked for me. I use SLIP EWL or MPRO LPX, but have also used Weapon's Shield and Militec. Products like LCP, Breakfree, and Remoil have never lasted for me and I avoid them at all costs.

[mstennes]

Originally Posted by pleaforwar

Mix,
What type of lube are you using? I only lube at the beginning of the day and it has always worked for me. I use SLIP EWL or MPRO LPX, but have also used Weapon's Shield and Militec. Products like LCP, Breakfree, and Remoil have never lasted for me and I avoid them at all costs.

I love SLIP, but have used Mobil One in a pinch, IMO its better than Break Free

[Gunnut 45/454]

mixflip
I too run mine in a desert environment -High Desert of Idaho! I still run them wet, though I don't go crawling though the dirt any more then I have to on hunts! Dirt crawling days are over! All I do for cleaning is 3 swipes with a bore snake - wipe the BCG down an relube! Thats it! Not one malf! Only malf I've had was a bad lip on a GI mag- tweaked the lip good to go!

[Gunnut 45/454]

mstennes
I don't know if it was the same video I saw but I watched the one they smoked the M4!
I thought it was sick watching the barrel just flop down! What a waste!

[mixflip]

Originally Posted by pleaforwar

Mix,What type of lube are you using?

Hoppes, maybe thats my problem? I'll get me some SLIP and see how thing go?


Gunnut, I saw a video where the guy melts the gas tube on a select fire M4...and I too thought that was a waste. The gun was never designed to me a "machine gun".

[Gunnut 45/454]

mixflip
This is why I don't worry about it as I'm not going into firefights on a daily/hourly basis anymore! When or if I ever have to pull out the AR for an SD/HD situation it will do it's job if I'm still capable of doing mine!
And when the SHTF I'll not sitting on my arse waiting for the fight -I'll be taking it to whom ever wants the fight!