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Old 01-15-2011, 21:54   #126
MacG22
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Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
The term "Castle Doctrine" is misunderstood by many people I think. The way it is being used recently means to extend the concept of CD to outside the "castle". So, NC and NJ, two states I know about, don't have "Castle Doctrine" laws as people refer to them today, meaning you are obligated to retreat, if possible, outside the home, but in reality, the concept of Castle Doctrine in it's true sense still applies to the "castle" (home). In NJ, as long as it is actually a self-defense situation, the concept of CD applies in the home.

That brings up your point about circumstances. If a homeowner shoots a buddy over a gambling debt in his home and claims castle doctrine, he still has a problem since it really isn't a self defense situation. But if some burglar comes in your house while you're there, you can pretty much blast him without further justification.

Right. In your home (in Castle states) you are not required to try and understand the complexities of the person's possible intent. You don't need to evaluate if you may be able to flee without being noticed or try to divine if the person will only take the tv, or if they will take the tv and rape your daughter.

You are allowed to defend your home from an intruder without having to know about their intent, as the invasion itself is justification. That does not mean we SHOULDN'T try to determine intent some times, or try to be careful to give someone a fair chance to explain. It's not wise to just shoot at every creak in the floor, and no one is suggesting that anyone should.

But to a large extent, you don't need to know if the drunk in your house at 2 am--who broke your window or door-- was there accidentally, was there to harm your family, or was there to steal medications, in order to be protected from civil and criminal punishment.

So in some ways, it is pretty simple.
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Old 01-15-2011, 22:05   #127
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hello

Like most people have said already I'm not relying on the racking of a slide to protect my life I'm relying on a loud boom.
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Old 01-15-2011, 22:07   #128
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Originally Posted by MacG22 View Post
Right. In your home (in Castle states) you do are not required to try and understand the complexities of the person's possible intent. You don't need to evaluate if you may be able to flee without being noticed or try to divine if the person will only take the tv, or if they will take the tv and rape your daughter.

You are allowed to defend your home from an intruder without having to know about their intent, as the invasion itself is justification. That does not mean we SHOULDN'T try to determine intent some times, or try to be careful to give someone a fair chance to explain. It's not wise to just shoot at every creek in the floor, and no one is suggesting that anyone should.

But to a large extent, you don't need to know if the drunk in your house at 2 am--who broke your window or door-- was there accidentally, was there to harm your family, or was there to steal medications, in order to be protected from civil and criminal punishment.

So in some ways, it is pretty simple.
Well stated, and unlike my posts, coherent.
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:21   #129
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How many burglars have you caught and interviewed? Trust me, I've caught them, interviewed them, taken statements from them and sent them to prison. Anybody that breaks into an occupied residence is looking for more than a flat screen.

Burglars that don;t want a confrontation go to great trouble to avoid occupied homes. Occasionally when they walk in on someone by accident, they flee. When someone breaks into your home at 2300, they want you to be there.

Killing a burglar is VERY simple. The "castle doctrine" has been around since before the Mayflower. Read your state's criminal code regarding "justification" so you can know what you're talking about instead of hearing gun shop and internet blather about what you need to do. Check out the local library and get back to us on that. This isn't Great Britain (yet).
I'm going out a limb here and saying you are a law enforcement officer.

I also think it's time you take a job behind the desk. Sounds like you have been out there a bit too long and your perception is extremely skewed.

Maybe I'm wrong - but nothing you are saying sounds healthy, sensible or legal in any sense. You may want to check into that.

As was said - my gun does not have anything in the chamber (lots of reasons), and there will be a rack. But the second that rack is done, there is round in the chamber with a gun raised pointed harms way with a finger on the trigger and the safety off. It is entirely possible that I go from that situation right to BANG. But I won't if I don'y have/need to.

The LAST thing I want to do is pull that trigger (lots of reasons), but it is the FIRST thing that will happen if I ID a target and decide threat. And there isn't a lot of margin in that decision on the BG's part.

All I heard from you was (from what I gather); I a cop - shoot anyone in your house. I'm tired of dealing with it and you don't have any balls if you don't.

Explain if I missed a basic point there - or clarify?

Most of the BG's in your house are there when you aren't.
Most of them there when you are there by accident.
Most of them there by accident will leave when they realize you are.
Most of them there not by accident still don't want-intend an armed/resisted conflict if that's obvious.

Now we are down to a very few that really don't care. They will be easy to know because they are coming at you, firing at noise or whatever. All bad moves on their part. You *might get a 1/1,000,000 lucky shot off that works. Then you gave up your tactical advantage.

Last edited by Aceman; 01-16-2011 at 09:23..
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:48   #130
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This thread has run its course.
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Old 01-16-2011, 10:12   #131
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This thread has run its course.
You're right about that it has run its course.

I have talked with several law enforcment officers and most agree there are two types of criminals; the ones that want nothing to do with you and try to steal when your not home, then there are the ones you need to worry about who do not care. These are the ones that are violent who look forward to confrontation and don't care if you are home. If this type criminal breaks in to our home all of us will get our belief sytems checked. At this point. All of this rederic will get played out based on what we do, that's a fact. God forbid it never happens and all we have to do is talk about the what if's on a forum.

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Old 01-16-2011, 13:40   #132
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There is certainly a lot of good info in this thread.

Chamber or not is your choice.

But I have read somewhere that BG are targeting homes while the owners are home and up. This is their way around the alarm systems. It does not mean the BG intends any physical harm.

If nothing else, this will give some of you something for your scenario training.
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Old 01-16-2011, 13:49   #133
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Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
I'm going out a limb here and saying you are a law enforcement officer.

I also think it's time you take a job behind the desk. Sounds like you have been out there a bit too long and your perception is extremely skewed.

Maybe I'm wrong - but nothing you are saying sounds healthy, sensible or legal in any sense. You may want to check into that.

As was said - my gun does not have anything in the chamber (lots of reasons), and there will be a rack. But the second that rack is done, there is round in the chamber with a gun raised pointed harms way with a finger on the trigger and the safety off. It is entirely possible that I go from that situation right to BANG. But I won't if I don'y have/need to.

The LAST thing I want to do is pull that trigger (lots of reasons), but it is the FIRST thing that will happen if I ID a target and decide threat. And there isn't a lot of margin in that decision on the BG's part.

All I heard from you was (from what I gather); I a cop - shoot anyone in your house. I'm tired of dealing with it and you don't have any balls if you don't.

Explain if I missed a basic point there - or clarify?

Most of the BG's in your house are there when you aren't.
Most of them there when you are there by accident.
Most of them there by accident will leave when they realize you are.
Most of them there not by accident still don't want-intend an armed/resisted conflict if that's obvious.

Now we are down to a very few that really don't care. They will be easy to know because they are coming at you, firing at noise or whatever. All bad moves on their part. You *might get a 1/1,000,000 lucky shot off that works. Then you gave up your tactical advantage.
Wow! Just, wow! Pop psychology, personal attacks, ignorance, and failing reading comprehension, all in one post. You should see if you can get your own show on that new Oprah network.
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Old 01-16-2011, 16:20   #134
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Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
How many burglars have you caught and interviewed?
Don't know. I made about 900 felony arrests, but I don't remmeber what percentage were for which crimes. But trust me, Ive caught them, interviewed them, taken statements from them and sent them to prison. And most, no matter what they are looking for, only want to get out of th ehouse when they realize the homeowner is awake, armed, and waiting for them.
Quote:
Burglars that don;t want a confrontation go to great trouble to avoid occupied homes. Occasionally when they walk in on someone by accident, they flee. When someone breaks into your home at 2300, they want you to be there.
OK, when you can find me a burglar who will say that he was willing to continue burlarizing the house after finding out the police are coming, the home owner is awake and armed and waiting for him, I'll be glad to look into it. But all the research says just the opposite.
Quote:
Killing a burglar is VERY simple.
Killing anybody is very simple. But the problem does not stop with the killing. The killing starts a process that often is rather complicated and expensive.
Quote:
The "castle doctrine" has been around since before the Mayflower. Read your state's criminal code regarding "justification" so you can know what you're talking about instead of hearing gun shop and internet blather about what you need to do. Check out the local library and get back to us on that. This isn't Great Britain (yet).
I always love this kind of nonsense, given that I teach the criminal code and assorted other legal issues on a regular basis. As I've stated repeatedly, jsut because you can shoot someone (justification) it doesn't mean it is a good idea to shoot someone. Check out the Joe Horn and Rodney Peairs cases at the local llibrary and get back to us on that.
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Old 01-16-2011, 16:26   #135
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Originally Posted by MacG22 View Post
Actually, in many states David, it can be. Castle laws are built upon the idea that your home is a "secondary location", in criminal terms, and for a majority of circumstances you are protected from both criminal and civil liability.
I'd question the "many" claim. Sadly, many if not most folks live in areas where the protection from criminal and civil cases is rather limited. And even if the protection is there, you might still be out a bunch of money before the courts decide that protection is available to you. Again, Joe Horn is a great example.
Quote:
There are a few circumstances that can bring question, and issues of coercion. But in general, if someone surprises you in your home and you defend yourself, you get the benefit of the doubt.
Even if you get the benefit of the doubt you are still going to have problems. Whether those problems are a big deal to the individual or not I can't address. But whatever the problems are they would not be there if the BG took advantage of the chance to go away.
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However, not all states are Castle states.
Exactly.
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Old 01-16-2011, 16:56   #136
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I always love this kind of nonsense, given that I teach the criminal code and assorted other legal issues on a regular basis. As I've stated repeatedly, jsut because you can shoot someone (justification) it doesn't mean it is a good idea to shoot someone. Check out the Joe Horn and Rodney Peairs cases at the local llibrary and get back to us on that.
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Great, so you stipulate that my point is correct, but then call it nonsense. Well played sir, I'm sure the people who sleep through your classes at the local community college are being well served.

Joe Horn was outdoors, and he was no-billed. I don't think he was even arrested. Really, WTF are you talking about?

Quote:
OK, when you can find me a burglar who will say that he was willing to continue burlarizing the house after finding out the police are coming, the home owner is awake and armed and waiting for him, I'll be glad to look into it. But all the research says just the opposite.
Here's a nice contradiction on your part:

Quote:
And most, no matter what they are looking for, only want to get out of th ehouse when they realize the homeowner is awake, armed, and waiting for them.
What are we talking about, your extensive expeirience making "felony arrests" which eclipses Inspector Callahan, or "research"?

As far as show you a burglar who will stick around when he knows the police are coming, how TF do you think I found so many? I don't know what kind of felons you stumbled across, but they don't seem to hold a candle to the guys I've caught masterbating in hallways while watching people sleep.

Also, lots of burglars don't give the homowner the courtesy of letting them call the police. Maybe they are more respectful of homowners in lollipop land where you live and make three arrests a month.

And 3 felony arrests a month is dog**** for an average, just so you know. And "felony arrests" is a silly stat to throw around too. A dick swears out a warrant on a check kiter and the check is for over $200.00 and he's got one of Dirty Harry's "felony arrests". We had guys do that three times a day and then get the check kiter to walk in for his arrest. We didn't even keep stats on that stuff.

Quote:
Killing anybody is very simple. But the problem does not stop with the killing. The killing starts a process that often is rather complicated and expensive.
The process stops within a few hours when the window screen is cut and the killed person is in someone else's house.

You claim to have lots of experience, but your posts don't indicate that. It almost seems like your experience comes from watching TV when you use terms like "felony arrests" and "research". You sound like a guy who makes his decisions based on "research" and how much trouble his actions will cause him, rather than the death or injury that could result from protecting yourself, and in your case, the public you are sworn to protect. We had lots of guys like that in admin. Always telling everybody what kind of trouble they could have if they do this or that. They never did anything themselves, they just "promulgated directives" that the real cops had to ignore when they were actually on the road.
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Old 01-16-2011, 17:40   #137
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I have to agree, Ace. That was one hell of a miss on that response.

You may disagree with what the officer said, but it would have made much more sense if you refuted it with some sort of fact or research. The officer didn't say his anecdote is always the truth. Just what he's seen. I appreciate that. And I agree. If someone just wants "stuff", they go to great pains to hit your home when there is as small of chance of being seen or caught as possible.

If they hit you when they know you are home, they are either crazy, drug altered, or a predator. And sometimes a mix of all of those. And that is dangerous as hell.
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Old 01-16-2011, 17:48   #138
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David,

Horn is hardly a good case to use when examining the castle doctrine. Horn saw burglars entering his NEIGHBOR'S house, and went out and provoked them, they followed him onto his front yard, and he shot them after issuing a poor warning while on the phone with 911.

Go to this site, run by the NRA. Every week they run stories of people who defend their homes and are treated exactly as the castle doctrine states: http://thearmedcitizen.com/

Now, if you're not in a castle state, things are more complex. I AM in a castle state. And I know, from copious reading and researching, that I am not required to interview an invader in order to be provided protection under the law. I'm not saying that it may not be prudent at times, but I do not need to uncover or divine their intentions for my family and I in order to be protected under the law for my self defense actions.

However, this doesn't mean that I don't see great wisdom in your assertion that posturing may diffuse some large percentage of circumstances where a person was drunk, drugged, or confused and truly wished the home owner no harm. And I think it's good to have a strategy that allows you to account for that whenever possible. Posturing with warnings, slide-rackings, etc may accomplish that and it may be a great thing for a person to incorporate those things.

But they stand as a part a strategy, but not really connected to whether a person is protected by castle laws.
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Old 01-16-2011, 21:32   #139
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Wow! Just, wow! Pop psychology, personal attacks, ignorance, and failing reading comprehension, all in one post. You should see if you can get your own show on that new Oprah network.
I didn't see any pop psychology; Burnout is a real thing.

Personal attacks; Perhaps. Of course it could be a response to what I think was incredibly dangerous advice.

Ignorance; About what?

Failing reading comprehension; I made the assumption that I might have mis-understood something. That's why I asked for clarification. Haven't seen it yet. Just a personal attack regarding Oprah (that's low...)

I read your post. With out specifying any particular situation it appears to me that you advocate shoot anyone in your home. You furthermore state that it is easy to do and legal. Please explain how that is reasonable or legal period?

I maintain that it is rare that your home gets broken into, even more rare that it happens when you are there, rarer still that person is interested in an armed conflict with an obviously armed owner.

If they are - you should certainly be ready. So, either make your position clear, or I'm sticking with your post was typed with a lot of anger, and verbal shooting from the hip.

And as for David living in Lollipop, you say that isn't a personal attack? He didn't say you were living in a Chuck Bronson movie from the 70's...

Just yell/scream/spout. I'm sure that will give people all the right information. Especially the new shooters who don't know any better.

So I'm asking - are you going to make it clear, or was shoot anyone in the house what you meant and it doesn't need to be any more clear? If not for me, maybe for the people out there who are Oprah fans and even dumber than me...

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Old 01-17-2011, 12:12   #140
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I maintain that it is rare that your home gets broken into, even more rare that it happens when you are there, rarer still that person is interested in an armed conflict with an obviously armed owner.
This is obviously location dependent. However I can tell you that in NE GA, the home break ins are not "rare". In addition, home invasions are not "rare". In testimony that I heard on GJ (over 500 cases over 6 months), we repeatedly heard "...and this is becoming more common". We heard cases of people that were targeted because they were small business owners that had some bad habits. Elderly that were targeted because they were deemed "easy" targets. I could go on & on with a wide variety of circumstances.

When the people are caught, they are not charged with "home invasion" (not a specific crime in our county) since it is actually different crimes that they have committed with specifics depending upon the specific incident - e.g., aggravated assault. Sure, we heard several cases where people were involved in drugs and were attacked by other BGs. However we also heard disturbing cases where the victims were innocent and targeted for other reasons like the ones that I've mentioned.

While I think keeping the chamber clear on shotgun is not a bad idea for the reasons that I previously posted (see Ayoob article), I don't think that you can assume that the BG is not prepared for an armed encounter. If they are breaking into a home during the day when most people are at work, this assumption is probably valid (IMO). They likely just wanted to get in & out with stuff that is easy to sell. However if they enter your home between early evening and early morning, they are likely expecting you to be home, they are likely armed, and they likely have a plan for what to do with you.
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Old 01-17-2011, 14:35   #141
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This is obviously location dependent. However I can tell you that in NE GA, the home break ins are not "rare". In addition, home invasions are not "rare". In testimony that I heard on GJ (over 500 cases over 6 months), we repeatedly heard "...and this is becoming more common". We heard cases of people that were targeted because they were small business owners that had some bad habits. Elderly that were targeted because they were deemed "easy" targets. I could go on & on with a wide variety of circumstances.

When the people are caught, they are not charged with "home invasion" (not a specific crime in our county) since it is actually different crimes that they have committed with specifics depending upon the specific incident - e.g., aggravated assault. Sure, we heard several cases where people were involved in drugs and were attacked by other BGs. However we also heard disturbing cases where the victims were innocent and targeted for other reasons like the ones that I've mentioned.

While I think keeping the chamber clear on shotgun is not a bad idea for the reasons that I previously posted (see Ayoob article), I don't think that you can assume that the BG is not prepared for an armed encounter. If they are breaking into a home during the day when most people are at work, this assumption is probably valid (IMO). They likely just wanted to get in & out with stuff that is easy to sell. However if they enter your home between early evening and early morning, they are likely expecting you to be home, they are likely armed, and they likely have a plan for what to do with you.
That's all I'm saying. Jdavionic and MacG22 say it better than I do, but that's what I'm trying to get across.
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