[cdog533]

This racking thing is dumb.

By racking a shotgun LOUDLY, you are giving up lots of info and giving the tango a giant tactical advantage.
- He knows you are armed
- He knows your position
- He knows you have a pump shotgun

It's like cocking a hammer on your revolver to show you mean business. It's crappy tactics and bad gun handling.

You ideally don't want him to know those things. If you are producing a shotgun in hopes of deterrence, then pointing the gun should work wonders without the pump sound. Following that, for maximum deterrence (facing a threat) fire it into his chest. He should break off his aggression at that point.

I was always taught that loud sounds don't do anything to scare people or even keep their heads down. It's well-aimed lead that does that. That means don't try to scare someone by outputting noise in their general direction...you need to actually hit them.

I cringe thinking of some dude that takes the old gun shop commando advice of 'just pump yer slide and they'll run fer it!' and gets shot while stomping into his living room at 2AM and promptly working his action in the face of 3 gangbangers. Bad tactics. He should be in his bedroom, facing the door, with a round in the chamber, staying QUIET.

The 'racking will scare them off' scattergun advice is usually followed by the 'heck you dont even need to aim it' advice.

[aippi]

So all you Ninjas are just going to sneak out and shoot a dark shape because is it in your house. You must intend that as you don't want to rack or give your position away with a light. Why do you even use a shotgun. You should simply sneak out of bed, put your cammo on and cammo paint your face ( or is that clown paint) and get your sniper rifle and see if you can pick them off.

And yes, at close quarters I don't use sights, I point fire. And if you are ever it this area of Michigan and have a few grand on you, stop by and we can throw it in a pot and have a little shooting match with the 12ga for speed and accuracy at close range. Leave your Ninja stuff at home as these boys up here will laugh you off the range.

[Glockdude1]

What would this one sound like?

[Bill G]

Originally Posted by aippi

So all you Ninjas are just going to sneak out and shoot a dark shape because is it in your house. You must intend that as you don't want to rack or give your position away with a light. Why do you even use a shotgun. You should simply sneak out of bed, put your cammo on and cammo paint your face ( or is that clown paint) and get your sniper rifle and see if you can pick them off.

And yes, at close quarters I don't use sights, I point fire. And if you are ever it this area of Michigan and have a few grand on you, stop by and we can throw it in a pot and have a little shooting match with the 12ga for speed and accuracy at close range. Leave your Ninja stuff at home as these boys up here will laugh you off the range.

Give them Hell J.D. ... There is a lot of good and miss information on these forums. I just sit back and take it all in He He!!!

Take Care Friend,
Bill G

[MacG22]

Originally Posted by aippi

So all you Ninjas are just going to sneak out and shoot a dark shape because is it in your house. You must intend that as you don't want to rack or give your position away with a light. Why do you even use a shotgun. You should simply sneak out of bed, put your cammo on and cammo paint your face ( or is that clown paint) and get your sniper rifle and see if you can pick them off.

And yes, at close quarters I don't use sights, I point fire. And if you are ever it this area of Michigan and have a few grand on you, stop by and we can throw it in a pot and have a little shooting match with the 12ga for speed and accuracy at close range. Leave your Ninja stuff at home as these boys up here will laugh you off the range.

Aippi,

While I generally agree with you on most things, not this (at least in how presented).

Surely you can see that there are two very well developed schools of training on this, both taught by very reputable and good sources, who suggest both schools.

Trying to us "mall ninja" and inadvertently shooting dark forms without IDing is not what anyone has advocated. And further, it's just an attempt to shame people into seeing things "your way".

I have already stated that I don't see any fear to racking (posturing) if a warning was going to be issued anyway. However, there are many situations where I may not want my position to be known beforehand. Where the element of surprise is what will allow me to defend my home and family and make it out alive (as just one example, where there are multiple targets who, through listening, you have already identified to be hostile).

Surely you can see it both ways and can allow logic and information to make your point without trying to use shame and accusations.

[Never Nervous]

Originally Posted by aippi

A simple act of asking your local LEO's how many break ins involve unocupied homes and unarmed perps will make any reasonable person understand this issue. Thinking your home is going to be attacked like the ending scene of the movie "Scar Face" is wrong headed.

A thief is there to steal not fight. He thought no one was home. Just making a sound will make them leave and yes, the sound of a pump shotgun racking and calling out that you are on the phone with the police, says get out. If you are so afraid and lacking in your ability with a weapon that you are going to shoot anyone in your home first then find out who they are and why they are there then you are considering a cowardly act that will affect you the rest of your life. How can you take the act of killing so casually and not see the affects it is going to bring on you, your future and maybe financial ruin. Train with the weapon, become proficient, plan your response and you will be able to deal with a situation and still protect yourself and your family.

I have complete confidence in my ablity and my weapon. I know I have the ability to be deadly if needed and to know when that is. I do not have start shooting at a precieved threat as I am able to deal with the situation and determine if deadly force is called for. I do not fear things that go bump in the night 'cause I can bump back harder if need be.

Stealing is not a death sentence. I have nothing that I can not replace in this home. I do not use deadly force to protect property. I have something else for that. It is called insurance. What I can not replace is my life and I will take a life if needed to protect my own. But to kill when I don't know my life is even in danger, no way. That is the act of a coward.

This type of thread always upsets me because some of the responses are so illresponsible and paint us as the gun nut killers that the anti gun people believe us to be. I also see the voice of reason in many of the responses and that is assureing.

If I am awakened in the middle of the night by someone in my home, I don't give a rats pa-tuty why they are there. I will not be doing any soul searching about how I will feel about it later. The intruders will not be invited to come in and read the 23rd Psalms. But that's just me.

NN

[WhiskeyUnicorn]

I work at a gun store part time and have heard that as a selling point a bunch. "Just rack the slide and they'll piss themselves." Albeit, the sound of the slide strikes fear into some, I wouldn't use that as my main deterrent. Thats like feigning death when being attacked by a shark...

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by cdog533

This racking thing is dumb.

By racking a shotgun LOUDLY, you are giving up lots of info and giving the tango a giant tactical advantage.

Tango??

- He knows you are armed

Which can be a good thing. Would you stick around a house knowing someone who is armed is there waiting to shoot you?

- He knows your position

If yo have gotten up and gone out looking for the BG, he probably knows where you are already.

- He knows you have a pump shotgun

Again, how is this a bad thing?

It's like cocking a hammer on your revolver to show you mean business. It's crappy tactics and bad gun handling.

I'd suggest keeping a shotgun that is probably not drop safe fully loaded is much worse than using the same tactics and gunhandling successfully used by LE for decades.

You ideally don't want him to know those things.

Folks keep saying that, but nobody seems able to provide a good argument for it.

If you are producing a shotgun in hopes of deterrence, then pointing the gun should work wonders without the pump sound. Following that, for maximum deterrence (facing a threat) fire it into his chest. He should break off his aggression at that point.

So rather than trying to get him to leave the house without trouble you think it is good tactics to confront him? Strange.

I was always taught that loud sounds don't do anything to scare people or even keep their heads down. It's well-aimed lead that does that. That means don't try to scare someone by outputting noise in their general direction...you need to actually hit them.

You were taught wrong. loiud sounds regualrly scare people and cause folks to keep their heads down.

I cringe thinking of some dude that takes the old gun shop commando advice of 'just pump yer slide and they'll run fer it!' and gets shot while stomping into his living room at 2AM and promptly working his action in the face of 3 gangbangers. Bad tactics.

Agreed, but I don't see anyone here who is suggesting those tactics.

[jdavionic]

The whole sound issue aside, I think there is merit to storing your shotgun with an empty chamber. The rational that I've read deals more with the design of many shotguns.

While it's from 2004, I think this article by Massad Ayoob is a good read on the subject of shotguns. You will see a discussion on the subject of keeping it unchambered. I think there is enough merit to this part to make the other discussions on the subject moot, IMHO.
http://www.sigma9.info/sigma9-docume...%20classic.pdf

[Aceman]

The message I'm hearing: You are in my house and I'm shooting you, even in the back if you are on your way out the door because Tango's[] can be shot just because I feel like it.

Clearly people who haven't done it and never had to explain it to the judge...Not saying I have. And I never want to.

And I welcome you to come to my house at night, with a Glock and we'll play this little game: I'll rack my Mossberg, and yell "ready or not here I come"

And we'll see if you can shoot me first. I don't think you'll do so well. Either you will get shot by me, or the police will show up. Not saying it won't turn out the other way. But I really don't think you have nearly the advantage you think you do...

[Nalapombu]

Originally Posted by bug

I think racking the slide for the sake of intimidation is wrong headed.
If they know anything about shotguns they now have an idea that you may be intimidated and more than likely you only have a max of 8 shots before reload then maybe 4 on the side. Also pumps are known to short stroke when the person operating it is nervous or scarred.
It happens not often but it can.

I would be willing to wager a LARGE sum of cash that there hasn't been a burglar in the history of burgling that has EVER thought this upon his hearing a shotgun being racked after he's broken into a home.

The goal is to protect yourself and family WITHOUT having to shoot someone. You ever pull the trigger on someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night and you'll probably be filing for bankruptcy not long after that. I'll take my chances with racking my shotgun and letting whomever is in my house hear it and know exactly where I am and what they are going to be dealing with if they choose to proceed.

Nalajr

[dorkweed]

Originally Posted by MacG22

Aippi,

While I generally agree with you on most things, not this (at least in how presented).

Surely you can see that there are two very well developed schools of training on this, both taught by very reputable and good sources, who suggest both schools.

Trying to us "mall ninja" and inadvertently shooting dark forms without IDing is not what anyone has advocated. And further, it's just an attempt to shame people into seeing things "your way".

I have already stated that I don't see any fear to racking (posturing) if a warning was going to be issued anyway. However, there are many situations where I may not want my position to be known beforehand. Where the element of surprise is what will allow me to defend my home and family and make it out alive (as just one example, where there are multiple targets who, through listening, you have already identified to be hostile).

Surely you can see it both ways and can allow logic and information to make your point without trying to use shame and accusations.

You won't be able to rack the shotgun any way.........you'll have your thumb stuck in the magazine!!!!

[MacG22]

Originally Posted by dorkweed

You won't be able to rack the shotgun any way.........you'll have your thumb stuck in the magazine!!!!

[dorkweed]

Originally Posted by MacG22

Sorry, but from your other post.............I just had to!!!!!

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Nalapombu

I would be willing to wager a LARGE sum of cash that there hasn't been a burglar in the history of burgling that has EVER thought this upon his hearing a shotgun being racked after he's broken into a home.

The goal is to protect yourself and family WITHOUT having to shoot someone. You ever pull the trigger on someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night and you'll probably be filing for bankruptcy not long after that. I'll take my chances with racking my shotgun and letting whomever is in my house hear it and know exactly where I am and what they are going to be dealing with if they choose to proceed.

Nalajr

You need to get out more and meet a different class of people. Cops are armed, visibly armed, and people attack them all the time. There are lots of animals out there who will defy the challenge of a gun pointed at them, racked, etc. I've met them personally. I've had them run at me and run away from me.

FWIW, anyone breaking into an occupied home is already defying the owners attempts to warn him off. They are breaking into an occupied home because they WANT you in there and don't care if you are armed or not. Announcing yourself just tosses away your chief advantage and also shows him you're too much of a meow to shoot him.

If someone is in your house, kill them. It's as simple as that. If you don't think you have the stomach for it, then you need to work on getting it. It's all part of the survival mindset. That is what makes 80 year old women armed with an H&R 22 revolver win gunfights.

[WhiskeyUnicorn]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

...If someone is in your house, kill them. It's as simple as that...

Its not as simple as someone in your house, you shoot him. What if an elderly confused man stumbled into your home and thought it was his own, assuming your door was unlocked? Would you want me to blast your grandpa because he mistaked my house for his? Life isn't simple and neither are laws, courts, and pound you in the ass prisons. As much **** as people get away with in court these days, I'd be wary of blasting away at a bump in the night...just sayin. There are two many scenarios to even talk about on this forum...to each their own. You want to shoot first and be questioned later, do it. If Mr. White would like to rack his shotgun and scare the bad guy away...cool. You can't say what you will, only what you have done. You can't make someone stomach killing another human being either... Every time and scenario will be different for everyone...

Sorry for off-topic

[David Armstrong]

FWIW, anyone breaking into an occupied home is already defying the owners attempts to warn him off. They are breaking into an occupied home because they WANT you in there and don't care if you are armed or not.

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Most BGs care very much if you are armed or not. They are breaking in for a reason. "I want to get into a gunfight" isn't one of those reasons.

Announcing yourself just tosses away your chief advantage and also shows him you're too much of a meow to shoot him.

Don't know where folks get ideas like this, but pretty much all the evidence says that is wrong.

If someone is in your house, kill them. It's as simple as that.

Again, don't know where folks get ideas like this. Killing someone is almost never simple, it starts a rather complicated and expensive process that most folks want to avoid.

[aippi]

Yes, I will rack my 870 and call out that I am armed and to get out of my house.

Normally this topic leaves me with a rather sick feeling due to all the "kill 'em all" mind sets. I have to say that this go around has brought out some very resonable sounding people. However, My main fear is the anti gun lobby will feed off the Killer Clowns and hold them up as the average gun owner in their attempts to take our rights away. I will defend with my life every one of you having the right to own firearms but after reading some of your comments I realize I would be dying for a small percentage of fools also.

You have to just about get the NRA magazine to even hear about an armed citizen defending their life. Let one of you killer clowns blow away some kid sneaking out of your daughters bedroom and that will be headlines for days on every talk show and newspaper. what, can't happen. I had teenage daughters and it did and the only one more scared then that boy was me when I realized who he was and what could have happened. You illresponsible people shame me as I am a responsible gun owner and your cavilier attitude about taking life proves you have either never been put in that situation or you have a chip missing somewhere.

[WhiskeyUnicorn]

^ What he said.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Most BGs care very much if you are armed or not. They are breaking in for a reason. "I want to get into a gunfight" isn't one of those reasons.

Don't know where folks get ideas like this, but pretty much all the evidence says that is wrong.

Again, don't know where folks get ideas like this. Killing someone is almost never simple, it starts a rather complicated and expensive process that most folks want to avoid.

How many burglars have you caught and interviewed? Trust me, I've caught them, interviewed them, taken statements from them and sent them to prison. Anybody that breaks into an occupied residence is looking for more than a flat screen.

Burglars that don;t want a confrontation go to great trouble to avoid occupied homes. Occasionally when they walk in on someone by accident, they flee. When someone breaks into your home at 2300, they want you to be there.

Killing a burglar is VERY simple. The "castle doctrine" has been around since before the Mayflower. Read your state's criminal code regarding "justification" so you can know what you're talking about instead of hearing gun shop and internet blather about what you need to do. Check out the local library and get back to us on that. This isn't Great Britain (yet).

[Bill G]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

How many burglars have you caught and interviewed? Trust me, I've caught them, interviewed them, taken statements from them and sent them to prison. Anybody that breaks into an occupied residence is looking for more than a flat screen.

Burglars that don;t want a confrontation go to great trouble to avoid occupied homes. Occasionally when they walk in on someone by accident, they flee. When someone breaks into your home at 2300, they want you to be there.

Killing a burglar is VERY simple. The "castle doctrine" has been around since before the Mayflower. Read your state's criminal code regarding "justification" so you can know what you're talking about instead of hearing gun shop and internet blather about what you need to do. Check out the local library and get back to us on that. This isn't Great Britain (yet).

Very good point about the types of burglers but I don't agree that it's easy to kill someone... That's a hole diffrent matter ..... No one wants that if at all possible..

Take Care All,
Bill G

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by WhiskeyUnicorn

Its not as simple as someone in your house, you shoot him. What if an elderly confused man stumbled into your home and thought it was his own, assuming your door was unlocked? Would you want me to blast your grandpa because he mistaked my house for his? Life isn't simple and neither are laws, courts, and pound you in the ass prisons. As much **** as people get away with in court these days, I'd be wary of blasting away at a bump in the night...just sayin. There are two many scenarios to even talk about on this forum...to each their own. You want to shoot first and be questioned later, do it. If Mr. White would like to rack his shotgun and scare the bad guy away...cool. You can't say what you will, only what you have done. You can't make someone stomach killing another human being either... Every time and scenario will be different for everyone...

Sorry for off-topic

Off topic and putting words in my mouth. Way to go taking my words, bend them to an extreme position, and put a nonsense spin on it.

And your position isn't accurate anyway. People shoot confused drunks who force their way in all the time and are no-billed, if it even goes to a grand jury. Sorry if your Pa Pa gets blasted by a homeowner who chose not to risk the welfare of his family.

Mr. White will have to make his own decisions. When he racks that gun and the guy just keeps walikng towards him, indifferent to his defensive tactics, the moment of truth will be there.

[MacG22]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

Again, don't know where folks get ideas like this. Killing someone is almost never simple, it starts a rather complicated and expensive process that most folks want to avoid.

Actually, in many states David, it can be. Castle laws are built upon the idea that your home is a "secondary location", in criminal terms, and for a majority of circumstances you are protected from both criminal and civil liability.

There are a few circumstances that can bring question, and issues of coercion. But in general, if someone surprises you in your home and you defend yourself, you get the benefit of the doubt.

However, not all states are Castle states.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by MacG22

Actually, in many states David, it can be. Castle laws are built upon the idea that your home is a "secondary location", in criminal terms, and for a majority of circumstances you are protected from both criminal and civil liability.

There are a few circumstances that can bring question, and issues of coercion. But in general, if someone surprises you in your home and you defend yourself, you get the benefit of the doubt.

However, not all states are Castle states.

The term "Castle Doctrine" is misunderstood by many people I think. The way it is being used recently means to extend the concept of CD to outside the "castle". So, NC and NJ, two states I know about, don't have "Castle Doctrine" laws as people refer to them today, meaning you are obligated to retreat, if possible, outside the home, but in reality, the concept of Castle Doctrine in it's true sense still applies to the "castle" (home). In NJ, as long as it is actually a self-defense situation, the concept of CD applies in the home.

That brings up your point about circumstances. If a homeowner shoots a buddy over a gambling debt in his home and claims castle doctrine, he still has a problem since it really isn't a self defense situation. But if some burglar comes in your house while you're there, you can pretty much blast him without further justification.

[dc2integra]

Originally Posted by aippi

Yes, I will rack my 870 and call out that I am armed and to get out of my house.

Normally this topic leaves me with a rather sick feeling due to all the "kill 'em all" mind sets. I have to say that this go around has brought out some very resonable sounding people. However, My main fear is the anti gun lobby will feed off the Killer Clowns and hold them up as the average gun owner in their attempts to take our rights away. I will defend with my life every one of you having the right to own firearms but after reading some of your comments I realize I would be dying for a small percentage of fools also.

You have to just about get the NRA magazine to even hear about an armed citizen defending their life. Let one of you killer clowns blow away some kid sneaking out of your daughters bedroom and that will be headlines for days on every talk show and newspaper. what, can't happen. I had teenage daughters and it did and the only one more scared then that boy was me when I realized who he was and what could have happened. You illresponsible people shame me as I am a responsible gun owner and your cavilier attitude about taking life proves you have either never been put in that situation or you have a chip missing somewhere.

good point you got there