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Old 09-13-2009, 10:17   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myg30 View Post
I think the lack of maintenance means to clean the lead out of the barrel.
To much build up can and will cause a failure and increase in pressure that will vent from everywhere other than the barrel.[read this on the first page].
Pistol rounds chamber on the edge of the brass case. Lead buildup may not allow the case to seat fully but Glocks are not suppose to fire out of battery.
I choose to keep mine clean especially after shooting lots of lead.
There are those of us that keep our cars and trucks sparkling clean even
when we drive them every day. The rest of us keep our guns clean but might not shoot them once a month!
Many of the Kabooms were experienced with jacketed ammo. No lead is involved there. The Glock was designed for military purposes using FMJ bullets. They can shoot many thousands of them with NO maintenance.
I NEVER use lead for any of my semi-autos. To do so means you take your chances and suffer the consequences. The tradeoff of cheaper ammo is risk of destroying your gun. Something I won't chance.
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Old 09-20-2009, 20:34   #342
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Okay, so it (very rarely) happens with .40 cal. How about with .45GAP? Personally, I LIKE the availability and price of .40- over .45GAP, anyway- but I'll bite on the kB issue. Is it worth the hassle of going to a different caliber? Asking because I'm partial to the compact Glock sizes, they just fit my hand best and do everything I need well. And as good as the 9mm is, I have to compensate a little; I'm a small guy with a small package. I need a bigger bullet.http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/s...mbarass%20.gif

BTW, anybody want to trade a new or like-new 23 for my like-new 29?
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Old 09-21-2009, 12:57   #343
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I haven't heard of any Kabooms in .45GAP. And the 9MM seems to have the least number of Kabooms of the regular calibers.
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Old 01-02-2010, 00:42   #344
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45 Kb photos

I had to research this KB years ago and found, the officer was using reloads that had a larger charge then recommended.Any gun today can KB, with the right mix of powder, double-charge etc.
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Old 10-25-2010, 07:18   #345
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awesome info here. Thanks for the read.
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Old 11-16-2010, 07:58   #346
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Originally Posted by SHOOTER629 View Post
I had to research this KB years ago and found, the officer was using reloads that had a larger charge then recommended.Any gun today can KB, with the right mix of powder, double-charge etc.
What does that picture of a FiveseveN have to do with the 45 kB?
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Old 11-17-2010, 00:54   #347
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What does that picture of a FiveseveN have to do with the 45 kB?
Like it has been said, I think someone screwed up.
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Old 11-17-2010, 08:52   #348
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Sorry. Did not see that anyone had mentioned it.
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:49   #349
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I had a "case failure" in two guns; one was a Colt 1911 & the other a SIG 220. The grips were shattered on the Colt & the remaining round in the magazine were jammed down. The mag was ruined but the gun was ok. A similar event happened with the SIG except that the gun was ruined because the aluminum receiver bulged and split open. Those events were KB's as far as I'm concerned dispite the OP's contention otherwise.
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Old 12-05-2010, 20:22   #350
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You know, I've waited for more than six years to answer this post. I thought to answer it when it first came out; but, at the time, I was fully aware that to do so would have caused an emotional, 'firestorm' among impassioned owner/admirers.

So, I very deliberately decided to remain silent. Now I'm thinking that if I owe Glock Talk one last post, this is it. So, here goes:

Quote:
'First, whether a pistol, eg., (SIC) Glock, has a supported or unsupported chamber is generally irrelevant to the subject of KB's. (SIC) While an unsupported chamber might contribute to a case failure, a case failure does not constitute a KB. (SIC)'
Incorrect. If supported or unsupported chambers did not contribute to Glock kB!'s then a steady progression of tighter and tighter chamber mouths would not be evident throughout subsequent generations of Glock pistols.

Incorrect, again. A case failure, if it is significant enough, can certainly cause a kB!.

Quote:
'So, what's a KB, (SIC) then? Well, to me, a KB (SIC) results in catastrophic failure of either a pistol's barrel or slide, or both. A case failure will probably result in a damaged mag, mag release, trigger assembly, maybe even a damaged frame. (or, in the case of 1911's, shattered grips)'
Incorrect. The key phrase here is, 'to me'. It relegates everything that follows to a subjective context. Furthermore, the originator of the expression, 'kaBoom!' would (I am sure.) never agree to such a narrow definition.

Quote:
'In order for a case failure @ 6 o'clock to cause a KB, (SIC) one would have to accept the premise that such a failure would cause dramatic increases in chamber pressure. Does anybody really believe that a RELEASE of pressure @ 6 o'clock will increase chamber pressure? Ever take h.s. physics? If not, or if you failed h.s. physics, then perhaps you should try writing for a gunrag (SIC) or sponsoring a specious internet site.'
Incorrect. This remark is contrived in such a way as to be a convoluted slam at Dean Speir. ANY sudden release of case pressure, at any location other than the case mouth, can - I am certain - cause a kaBoom! event.

Quote:
'Let's use an analogy for the purposes of demonstrating the silliness of blaming lack of case support for KB's. (SIC) Ever fill up an air tank? Ever wonder what happens to a steam boiler or water heater when tank pressures exceed the tanks' pressure maximums? Well, if the tank has a pop-off valve or other method of releasing pressure, not much happens. With no such relief mechanism, a lot happens, catastrophically. Get the analogy with pistol chambers? If you don't, then, well, good luck with your life.'
Incorrect. The above is a classic example of an illogical non-sequitur. (I prefer to call specious logic like this, 'mental diarrhea'.)

Quote:
'Photos of blown-up pistols on websites prove nothing, nor make any statements about the design features of that particular blown-up pistol. The picture might just reflect the statistical quality control anomaly of a factory round, or it might indicate an overcharged reload. The posting of a picture or anecdote on the internet doesn't give one any facts at all regarding KB's. (SIC) (Even if the photos are of G21's blown up by police officers)'
This premise is arguable; and, an opposite situation or opinion would be, equally, as valid. Neither premise is capable of producing a preponderance of irrefutable evidence - Period.

Quote:
'There are, I believe, over 2 million Glocks alive and well worldwide. If, as is claimed by the uninformed, Glock's design causes Glocks to randomly explode, then we'd certainly be hearing of more than just a few random cases of exploded Glocks on the internet. Nope, if design flaws were the problem, we'd be seeing tens of thousands of blown-up Glocks, government-demanded recalls, and not just the few "examples" that are posted here-and-there.'
Incorrect. Glocks kaBoom! more often, and for more different reasons, than any other pistol. From someone who demands a preponderance of evidence in order to prevail, this laissez-faire acceptance of what amounts to little more than unsubstantiated technical innuendo is rather surprising - if not prejudicial.

In my experience: If Glock pistols are anything, at all, they are, 'works in progress'. Consequently, one of Glock's outstanding physical characteristics is, for lack of a better word, 'inconsistency'.

Some Glock pistols do this; and other Glock pistols do that. Besides, Glock, GmbH has quietly settled so many lawsuits that it is extremely difficult to know just how broad this problem actually is?

It is, however, 'a large number' that has clearly been litigated rather than enforced by any government fiat. Lucky for Glock, GmbH - Huh!)

Quote:
'Now for my own anecdote. I've fired somewhere in the vicinity of 150,000 rounds of my reloads through my Glocks, mostly through G21's. Matt, of CGR, and others, have fired many times more of their reloads through their Glocks than I have through mine. I reload my .45ACP's until the necks split. I've never even had a 6 o'clock case failure, let alone a KB, using a factory Glock barrel.'
So what! One of the first things I ever learned about my brand new G-21's - You know, the Glock pistols with the sporadically defective #4256 trigger bars - was that, if you wanted to prevent them from blowing up in your hand, they had to be very carefully custom-tuned.

In fact, in order to continue safely running my early third generation Glock 21's, over a 3 or 4 year period-of-time, I was forced to become a knowledgeable (and still uncertified) Glock armorer. (Just like the author of the commentary I'm presently critiquing.)

When it came to successfully running one of my Model 21's, knowing how to custom-tune them made all the difference between safe and unsafe operation. By the way, my own round count is, also, in the tens of thousands. Again, so what!

Quote:
'I did experience a KB (SIC) with my original G21 (see photo), using an aftermarket barrel, powder that was too fast, bullet that was too heavy, and a little of my own carelessness mixed in. Clearly had a feedramp (SIC) bullet setback, with the expected KB. (SIC) Please note that the case is split down its entire length. If this had been a 6 o'clock blowout, the case would only have failed @ 6 o'clock.'
And, the point is ...... ? This colorful personal anecdote is strictly an emotional appeal that validates absolutely nothing.

Quote:
'Glocks are among the safest pistols in use today. They are not subject to an abnormal risk of KB. (SIC) If you overcharge, or, especially, doublecharge (SIC) a round or use an overcharged or doublecharged (SIC) factory round, your pistol, regardless of manufacturer, will probably KB. (SIC) It's as simple as that.'
No, it's not, 'as simple' as that. When the author wrote his original article, he was completely ignorant about a unique operating characteristic of all polymer frame pistols: One subsequently identified by Glock, GmbH as, 'frame harmonics'.

'Frame harmonics' is a polymer pistol frame operating phenomenon that - to the best of my knowledge - I am the first member of this board to, either, mention or post any suspicions about.

At the time, the reaction of the general membership was, 'dead silence'; and, it took the Glock factory, itself, more than another year before they were finally ready to publicly admit this unique operating characteristic of polymer frame pistols.

As already stated: Glock's polymer frame pistols are, indeed, 'works in progress'. As a group, the third generation pistols - and especially the later serial number third generation pistols - are, without question, the most trouble free polymer pistols in the world.

Still, and again as I've already stated, if Glock's model lineup of polymer pistols has two outstanding physical characteristics, those characteristics would be extreme reliability AND inconsistency.

The long and the short of things is that - regardless of whatever the model number may be - if you have a Glock pistol that works, keep it.

If, however, you have a Glock pistol that does not work then attribute it to a, 'learning curve' - Either: your own, or someone else's. (It's, kind 'a, like being part of a great industrial experiment - Isn't it!)

Last edited by Arc Angel; 12-06-2010 at 07:37..
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Old 12-06-2010, 12:19   #351
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Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
You know, I've waited for more than six years to answer this post. I thought to answer it when it first came out; but, at the time, I was fully aware that to do so would have caused an emotional, 'firestorm' among impassioned owner/admirers.


............interesting monologue/dissertation snipped..............
Interesting.

I have a very early 3rd generation G19 (before the third pin), and a very recent G23. I have trusted, and will continue to trust, my life to either of them any time I leave my home state. Until such time as one of them blows one of my fingers off. If that happens, I will whine, cry, and feel violated. And move to a lesser defensive pistol at such time.
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Old 12-06-2010, 23:28   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post

'Frame harmonics' is a polymer pistol frame operating phenomenon that - to the best of my knowledge - I am the first member of this board to, either, mention or post any suspicions about.

At the time, the reaction of the general membership was, 'dead silence'; and, it took the Glock factory, itself, more than another year before they were finally ready to publicly admit this unique operating characteristic of polymer frame pistols.

As already stated: Glock's polymer frame pistols are, indeed, 'works in progress'. As a group, the third generation pistols - and especially the later serial number third generation pistols - are, without question, the most trouble free polymer pistols in the world.

Still, and again as I've already stated, if Glock's model lineup of polymer pistols has two outstanding physical characteristics, those characteristics would be extreme reliability AND inconsistency.

The long and the short of things is that - regardless of whatever the model number may be - if you have a Glock pistol that works, keep it.

If, however, you have a Glock pistol that does not work then attribute it to a, 'learning curve' - Either: your own, or someone else's. (It's, kind 'a, like being part of a great industrial experiment - Isn't it!)
Thank you & thank you, just when I don't expect to find anything new and interesting, on GT, SHAZAAM, it happens.

'Frame harmonics' is the perfect name for the problem occurring here, IMO. I believe, if some very high speed movies were taken, of Glocks firing, we would see some strange frame shapes. I can't remember ever seeing a picture of a shell case blowing out, in the 6 O'clock chamber position, until Glock came along. It's sorta like he said, if your Glock works, keep it.

Finally, a breath of fresh air!
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:47   #353
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Thank you & thank you, just when I don't expect to find anything new and interesting, on GT, SHAZAAM, it happens.

'Frame harmonics' is the perfect name for the problem occurring here, IMO. I believe, if some very high speed movies were taken, of Glocks firing, we would see some strange frame shapes. I can't remember ever seeing a picture of a shell case blowing out, in the 6 O'clock chamber position, until Glock came along. It's sorta like he said, if your Glock works, keep it.

Finally, a breath of fresh air!
Ever heard of a 1911 .38 Super? I thought they used to be notorious for that.

However, things were generally better contained than on a plastic-framed pistol. And the issue even with them was too much pressure in a barrel that didn't offer enough case support. I think that is all it boils down to: chamber opened up enough to ensure reliability leaves a little too much case web unsupported. Get even a little more than a 3-sigma deviation in pressure on the high side, and you get a blow-out in the weakest area, 6 o'clock. Pressure is released into an area that is not designed to contain it, and the frame ruptures.

All that being said, I'll still stand by what I said above. But I won't be doing any kind of fiddling with my G23 unless it has an aftermarket barrel in it (with a tighter chamber).
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Old 12-08-2010, 20:15   #354
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Ever heard of a 1911 .38 Super? I thought they used to be notorious for that.

However, things were generally better contained than on a plastic-framed pistol. And the issue even with them was too much pressure in a barrel that didn't offer enough case support. I think that is all it boils down to: chamber opened up enough to ensure reliability leaves a little too much case web unsupported. Get even a little more than a 3-sigma deviation in pressure on the high side, and you get a blow-out in the weakest area, 6 o'clock. Pressure is released into an area that is not designed to contain it, and the frame ruptures.

All that being said, I'll still stand by what I said above. But I won't be doing any kind of fiddling with my G23 unless it has an aftermarket barrel in it (with a tighter chamber).
You are correct about the 38 Super, in 1911 type guns. That was caused by re-loaders putting too much powder, in the case to make some magical 'power factor'. Some folks grew beards to cover the scars, on their face. That got to be known as "super face". The 38 Super was already a high pressure cartridge, in the factory loadings and to exceed that was just plain ignorance. I remember "super face".

I have fired factory 45ACP in a Colt 1911A1 and a Glock 21, with very different results. The cases fired, in the Glock had such a big bulge they wouldn't go in a re-sizing die. The very same ammo was fired in the Colt with absolutely no indication of anything amiss. It was commercial Remington FMC, 230gr, 45ACP ammo.

But, as you point out, the metal framed guns do seem to have a better chance of coming out unscathed.
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:48   #355
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I think that it is possible for a Glock to fire while slightly out of battery. I believe that Glock went through the trouble of redesigning the recoil spring in Gen 4 to avoid that. The Gen 4 Glocks appear to be a bit more positive in their lock up as the barrel slides in the slide.
If the number of KBs goes down on Gen 4 it could prove my point.
The new chambers in 40 S&W also appear to be tighter than some earlier versions.
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:59   #356
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I have fired factory 45ACP in a Colt 1911A1 and a Glock 21, with very different results. The cases fired, in the Glock had such a big bulge they wouldn't go in a re-sizing die. The very same ammo was fired in the Colt with absolutely no indication of anything amiss. It was commercial Remington FMC, 230gr, 45ACP ammo.
The original Glock was designed for the 9x19, a tapered round. Glock 9x19 chambers are nice and tight. The tapered cartridge feeds very well.
When they had to adapt their pistol to US cartridges, they had to deal with straight wall cartridges such as 40 S&W, 10mm, 45ACP. To assure reliability they went nuts with the chambers making them loose and without the support we were used to. Putting a round in the barrel of a G21 and looking at the bottom reveals the problem, no support. The 45 is their worst. If it was not for the low pressures of the 45, every single round would be a KB.
I cannot understand why the US manufacturers keep designing straight wall semi auto cartridges when a little taper can make them feed so much better and can use a tight chamber.
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Old 03-18-2011, 19:21   #357
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The original Glock was designed for the 9x19, a tapered round. Glock 9x19 chambers are nice and tight. The tapered cartridge feeds very well.
When they had to adapt their pistol to US cartridges, they had to deal with straight wall cartridges such as 40 S&W, 10mm, 45ACP. To assure reliability they went nuts with the chambers making them loose and without the support we were used to. Putting a round in the barrel of a G21 and looking at the bottom reveals the problem, no support. The 45 is their worst. If it was not for the low pressures of the 45, every single round would be a KB.
I cannot understand why the US manufacturers keep designing straight wall semi auto cartridges when a little taper can make them feed so much better and can use a tight chamber.
I'm not quite sure what to make of this. It's a pretty poor excuse for Glock's shoddy design. You are entirely correct about the 45 ACP being a low pressure round and being the only reason they didn't have KBs, with all the Glock 45s.

The 10mm that you refer to, is actually a European design, by Norma.

The 45 ACP is over 100 years old. It shouldn't be a surprise to the Europeans, about straight wall pistol cases. The Glock 21 is the new kid on the block. Glock is the only gun that I've ever seen a bulged 45 ACP case from.
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Old 03-23-2011, 17:20   #358
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WOW! Been hunting with my G20 10mm with my handloads for years with no problems useing Aliant Blue dot powder and Hornady 180gr XTP's in Star line brass with Winchester primers. I also use the home cast Lee 175gr TC, TL bullets with no problems. Im also useing Lee's great Factory crimp die to post size the cases and make them more reliable in my oppinion.
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Old 07-30-2011, 01:01   #359
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im new to this forum and this is prob one of my favorite reads on here so far.. tbh i didnt look too much into the kb rumors about glocks online.. it seemed obvious enough to me seeing all the posts of ppl saying they've shot thousands of rounds with no problems and the fact that police are using them... which quite frankly if the gun is failing regularly in anyway they i would doubt they'd keep it in service.
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Old 07-30-2011, 01:06   #360
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Don't believe everything you read about Glocks on the web--especially if it is written by Dean Speir!
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