GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-15-2010, 20:25   #51
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by VBG23 View Post
Is this a serious question given the current midterms? If the markets tank during an election year, whatever party is in power has a tendency to lose. It isn't Reagan or Carter or Obama or Bush, it is the Democratic party or the Republican party and whichever party the buisness world thinks will be beneficial.

A rising market is not a guaranteed win, but a sinking market is a huge weight around the neck of whatever political party lays claim to the guy in office.
OK then...well I guess they Democrats really screwed the pooch this go-round because they really haven't done very well in terms of manipulating the markets.

I mean seriously? If they can do it...why not do it all the time? Why not create perpetual prosperity? Why would any political party in power EVER let something like a Recession, Market down turn, Depression EVER happen? People would gladly vote in a party that could produce perpetual prosperity. So if they control the markets it begs the question...

Exactly HOW does the government prop up the stock market? Where do all these buy orders come from? Who holds the stock? After all major shareholders in public corporations are public record?
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2010, 20:37   #52
1 old 0311
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
So what stops them from deleting the word American in a future bill?? And at that point is the average American even following what the gov. says anymore and just handing over their life savings??

-Emt1581

Even with Bill Clinton (Ruby Ridge/Wayco/perjury) there was still a 'kind' of limit to what Presidential powers could be interpreted as. With Obama he has SAID and SHOWN there is NO limit to what he thinks his powers are limited to.

My cash, and metals, are safer in a safe deposit box, BUT if the political climate gets a bit dicy I am prepared, within minutes, to get out the shovel.
1 old 0311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2010, 20:45   #53
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 old 0311 View Post
Even with Bill Clinton (Ruby Ridge/Wayco/perjury) there was still a 'kind' of limit to what Presidential powers could be interpreted as. With Obama he has SAID and SHOWN there is NO limit to what he thinks his powers are limited to.

My cash, and metals, are safer in a safe deposit box, BUT if the political climate gets a bit dicy I am prepared, within minutes, to get out the shovel.
Can't the president issue executive orders for a LOT of things? I know some have time limits but in the mean time, what stops the initial order from being given?

I guess if you are prepared within maybe 5-10 minutes to go grab everything out of the box fine, but who says you'll have that long?

Personally, I think having a good secure vault at home is much safer so long as you layer your security (steel/concrete, security system, dog, guns, motion lighting, etc.). But to each his/her own.

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2010, 21:12   #54
SilverCity
Senior Member
 
SilverCity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Old West
Posts: 494
Quote:
Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
So what stops them from deleting the word American in a future bill?? And at that point is the average American even following what the gov. says anymore and just handing over their life savings??

-Emt1581
When they come for it, give them your copper and lead.


SC
__________________
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." But first it will make you miserable.

Last edited by SilverCity; 10-15-2010 at 21:14..
SilverCity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2010, 21:22   #55
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity View Post
When they come for it, give them your copper and lead.


SC
Well yeah, but that's cutting to the chase. He threw out the whole idea of things being written on paper...

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2010, 21:56   #56
SilverCity
Senior Member
 
SilverCity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Old West
Posts: 494
Quote:
Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
Well yeah, but that's cutting to the chase. He threw out the whole idea of things being written on paper...

-Emt1581
1933 was a whole different ballgame. Gold was actually money ($20 Eagle) and the bankers could not inflate the money supply as long as the dollar was tied to something in limited supply. Much cheaper to cut the dollar loose...

BTW, few actually complied then, and I am sure Americans would never comply today.Very few (maybe 1-2%) hold bullion inside the country. Most hold it in paper form with the GLD or SLV.

The goonies are WAY more interested in approximately 3-5 TRILLION dollars currently held in IRA, 401Ks, and pension funds. In fact, we will probably see legislation enacted this year or next to confiscate ALL of the money and force people to take "govt. guaranteed" annuities in the form of U.S. treasuries in exchange. Maybe voluntary at first, then mandatory. The idea has been floated around in govt meetings for the past 2 years.

Get your money "off the grid" and out of their hands.



SC
__________________
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." But first it will make you miserable.

Last edited by SilverCity; 10-15-2010 at 21:58..
SilverCity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2010, 21:58   #57
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity View Post
1933 was a whole different ballgame. Gold was actually money ($20 Eagle) and the bankers could not inflate the money supply as long as the dollar was tied to something in limited supply. Much cheaper to cut the dollar loose...

BTW, few actually complied then, and I am sure Americans would never comply today.Very few (maybe 1-2%) hold bullion inside the country. Most hold it in paper form with the GLD or SLV.

The goonies are WAY more interested in approximately 3-5 TRILLION dollars currently held in IRA, 401Ks, and pension funds. In fact, we will probably see legislation enacted this year or next to confiscate ALL of the money and force people to take "govt. guaranteed" annuities in the form of U.S. treasuries in exchange. Maybe voluntary at first, then mandatory.

The idea has been floated around in govt meetings for the past 2 years. Get your money "off the grid" and out of their hands.



SC
This is why I put most of my money into guns/ammo. It's a LOT harder to confiscate something that can kill you.

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2010, 22:07   #58
JK-linux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
I'll be honest, up until about a month or two ago, I was confused as well...and I figured usable/consumable goods would be far more desired than PM's. But really, PM's have been an agreed upon hold of value for thousands of years. So yes, I believe they will be a good currency compared to paper which just symbolizes value.

What still confuses me is how someone will establish an agreed upon value of the PM. The typical response is "supply and demand". But someone who's in a jam and about to die without water might pay 20oz. of gold for one bottle of water....is that even remotely a fair deal? Wouldn't the person about to die be better off just plugging the guy over charging? And wouldn't the gouger deserve what he gets? These are questions and suggestions that are often frowned upon and scoffed at by a lot of PM holders...but no one can really offer an intelligent solution around gouging.

But aside from the gouging issue PM's really are an intelligent way to do business. Think about it...it's an element. No exchange rates, no currencies to worry about losing/gaining "value", etc. It's universal.

Think about life now though...is money all you need? Hell no!! You need food/water, shelter, some money, guns/ammo, medical supplies, etc...you'll need the exact same supplies should the SHTF.

Back to your view of the future let me ask this. If something has had value for thousands of years, is valuable now, why would it be worthless in the future?

-Emt1581
Thanks for the info. I think I'll stick with stocking up on other things. I can't see myself selling extra food, wood or ammunition for pieces of metal, especially if there is no intrinsic use for it other than dentistry. Leads to the question of how to find a good dentist after the big one, and whether we'll just go back to pulling teeth instead of filling them. Not saying it would be worthless, just that I don't see it's worth personally. Good luck all.
JK-linux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2010, 22:14   #59
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by JK-linux View Post
Thanks for the info. I think I'll stick with stocking up on other things. I can't see myself selling extra food, wood or ammunition for pieces of metal, especially if there is no intrinsic use for it other than dentistry. Leads to the question of how to find a good dentist after the big one, and whether we'll just go back to pulling teeth instead of filling them. Not saying it would be worthless, just that I don't see it's worth personally. Good luck all.
You should really search my threads. Seems like you have the same questions I have/had. Just last month I did one on the dentist issue...

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2010, 22:23   #60
SilverCity
Senior Member
 
SilverCity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Old West
Posts: 494
My dentist will accept gold and silver for dental work. Now if I could just find a doctor, a veterinarian, a car mechanic, grocer, etc.
__________________
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." But first it will make you miserable.
SilverCity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2010, 22:33   #61
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity View Post
My dentist will accept gold and silver for dental work. Now if I could just find a doctor, a veterinarian, a car mechanic, grocer, etc.
Actually there was a guy on one of the forums I post on that was saying his vet DOES accept silver bullion.

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 05:34   #62
VBG23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 741
[QUOTE=Dennis in MA;16148570]
Wheat - not going up in price.

[QUOTE]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...y-outlook.html

__________________
"Respect for religion must be reestablished. Public debt should be reduced. The arrogance of public officials must be curtailed. Assistance to foreign lands must be stopped or we shall bankrupt ourselves. The people should be forced to work and not depend on government for subsistence." - Cicero, 60 B.C.
VBG23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 05:42   #63
VBG23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
OK then...well I guess they Democrats really screwed the pooch this go-round because they really haven't done very well in terms of manipulating the markets.
I'm sure I have already said it, whether you want to listen or not. The free market cannot be held at bay for too long. What goes up must come down, bubbles burst; pick your cute little quip to explain it. The massive bubbles and busts we have been seeing for decades now is a direct result of trying to artificially push the markets and economy too high too fast without any firm foundation and the resulting correction.

This is why any market dip is usually referred to as a "correction." It went too high too fast due to whatever reason, and is now falling back in line with its true vaule.

The latest was caused by the sub-prime market explosion and resulting housing boom combined with lower than average interest rates and easy free money for anyone with a pen.

Doesn't matter how much anyone wants it to stay inflated, eventually artificially "robust" economies collapse back to reflect their fundamentals. The role of the Fed and every other financial agency is to reinflate the bubble as fast as possbile with low interest rates and stacks of devalued cash.
__________________
"Respect for religion must be reestablished. Public debt should be reduced. The arrogance of public officials must be curtailed. Assistance to foreign lands must be stopped or we shall bankrupt ourselves. The people should be forced to work and not depend on government for subsistence." - Cicero, 60 B.C.
VBG23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 06:45   #64
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by VBG23 View Post
I'm sure I have already said it, whether you want to listen or not. The free market cannot be held at bay for too long. What goes up must come down, bubbles burst; pick your cute little quip to explain it. The massive bubbles and busts we have been seeing for decades now is a direct result of trying to artificially push the markets and economy too high too fast without any firm foundation and the resulting correction.

This is why any market dip is usually referred to as a "correction." It went too high too fast due to whatever reason, and is now falling back in line with its true vaule.

The latest was caused by the sub-prime market explosion and resulting housing boom combined with lower than average interest rates and easy free money for anyone with a pen.

Doesn't matter how much anyone wants it to stay inflated, eventually artificially "robust" economies collapse back to reflect their fundamentals. The role of the Fed and every other financial agency is to reinflate the bubble as fast as possbile with low interest rates and stacks of devalued cash.
Can't have it both ways. Either the government can control the markets or they can't. Your posts suggest they manipulate the markets every election cycle. That's every 2 years. So why would the markets sink at the end of the Clinton Presidency? Why would the markets suck during the ENTIRE Carter presidency? Why would FDR's third term STILL be mired in a Recession? Why would Ike's first term end in a Recession? If you say the markets corrected and the government couldn't do anything about it then you are by default admitting the the government isn't successful at controlling the markets...

I understand the relationship between a bubble and credit/money supply. But that's not the same thing as controlling markets. That's riding the wave. And if history is any guide it hasn't been done in any way shape or form to manipulate an election cycle. If you believe that I suggest you look at the current election cycle and PLEASE show me how the markets are working towards the Democrats benefit? How did the crash of the Tech Bubble in 2001 during the later part of the Clinton Administration benefit the Democrats and how come they couldn't manipulate it to their benefit?

Oh and BTW, nobody has yet addressed how a chart with a 110 year market history comparison validates the claim that Reagan's Executive Order signed in 1988 manipulates the stock market???? Which BTW pre-dates the whole CFR/Bilderberger nonsense...
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”

Last edited by Big Bird; 10-16-2010 at 06:47..
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 07:20   #65
UneasyRider
C.D.B.
 
UneasyRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,746
It's interesting to see silver and gold go so high after all of the PM debates that have gone on here. We are going to tank some day soon and when we do those PM's will keep going up. FerFal said that people in his country sold gold at $4,000 thinking that they had made a killing, but the currency that they put their profits in just kept inflating to 100 to 1 type numbers.

Hang on to your PM's.
__________________
"Freedom ain't Free" Ted Nugent at the House of Blues in Orlando.

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms." - Aristotle,
UneasyRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 07:28   #66
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by UneasyRider View Post
It's interesting to see silver and gold go so high after all of the PM debates that have gone on here. We are going to tank some day soon and when we do those PM's will keep going up. FerFal said that people in his country sold gold at $4,000 thinking that they had made a killing, but the currency that they put their profits in just kept inflating to 100 to 1 type numbers.

Hang on to your PM's.
The price of Gold has had almost no correlation with inflation for the last 32 years according to a study by Ibbotson. Take Gold's high point in 1985 at $850 an ounce and today it would have to be worth over $2,200 an ounce to just keep up with inflation. Forget the high point--take the average price of the 80's and the metal still hasn't kept pace with inflation Over the last three years the price of Gold has gone up dramatically. Yet inflation has been below 2% for most of that time.
The price of Gold is reasonably correlated with the value of the dollar on the world's currency markets. Since it seems clear that the current administration is going to pursue a weak dollar strategy to help prop up manufacturing its not unreasonable to use Gold as a hedge.
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”

Last edited by Big Bird; 10-16-2010 at 07:34..
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 07:50   #67
UneasyRider
C.D.B.
 
UneasyRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
The price of Gold has had almost no correlation with inflation for the last 32 years according to a study by Ibbotson. Take Gold's high point in 1985 at $850 an ounce and today it would have to be worth over $2,200 an ounce to just keep up with inflation. Forget the high point--take the average price of the 80's and the metal still hasn't kept pace with inflation Over the last three years the price of Gold has gone up dramatically. Yet inflation has been below 2% for most of that time.
The price of Gold is reasonably correlated with the value of the dollar on the world's currency markets. Since it seems clear that the current administration is going to pursue a weak dollar strategy to help prop up manufacturing its not unreasonable to use Gold as a hedge.
If it did who cares. I am saying that getting out of PM's into inflating dollars is stupid IMHO, keep your PM's.
__________________
"Freedom ain't Free" Ted Nugent at the House of Blues in Orlando.

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms." - Aristotle,
UneasyRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 09:50   #68
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by UneasyRider View Post
If it did who cares. I am saying that getting out of PM's into inflating dollars is stupid IMHO, keep your PM's.
To what end?
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 10:34   #69
wonderwolf
Yay college
 
wonderwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: O H I O
Posts: 1,626
Send a message via AIM to wonderwolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcvojak View Post
It is much easier if you have $500 or so stashed away in the safe that you can quickly access so that you can buy a tank full of gas and a trunk full of food. Despite the dollar crashing, there will always be people willing to take worthless pieces of paper, just as they have been trained to do all their lives.
For the unprepared yeah that will work but if its anything long term then they only are buying themselves a little time. No point in chancing going on during that time to the super markets and gas stations if its going to be anything like black Friday...people get killed that way, and you put a dash of total collapse and panic in there, well.....
__________________
<><><><>Profesional Tin can hunter<><><><>
*****Guided bowling pin hunting trips*****
(((((((Survival/preparedness club #629)))))
^^^^^^^Military surplus club #45^^^^^^^
*********WheelHouse club #2400********
wonderwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 11:29   #70
UneasyRider
C.D.B.
 
UneasyRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
To what end?
The PM's retain their purchasing power. Let's say that you bought 1 ounce of gold at $300 an ounce and 2 years later you can sell it for $3,000 an ounce. Sounds great right? But what if another 2 years later you can sell it for $30,000 an ounce, even better right?

Now you may say what about the inflation rate during that time, the price of a banana and everything else went way up too. Well that would be the way that it works with inflation. But if you can still buy the same amount of bananas you maintained your purchasing power. If you kept your money in your pocket then your $300 would buy 1% of what the you could have bought if you bought the gold coin. That is a net loss of purchasing power of 99%. Not good.

But wait you might have put that $300 in the bank earning interest, hey it's insured by the FDIC, what interest rate would the bank have to pay you to turn your $300 into $30,000 in 4 years? Where is the bank going to invest their money in order to get the needed return plus profit to do this for you?

I will keep my PM's, you may have a better investment and choose to keep it, I don't.
__________________
"Freedom ain't Free" Ted Nugent at the House of Blues in Orlando.

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms." - Aristotle,
UneasyRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 11:53   #71
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by UneasyRider View Post
The PM's retain their purchasing power. Let's say that you bought 1 ounce of gold at $300 an ounce and 2 years later you can sell it for $3,000 an ounce. Sounds great right? But what if another 2 years later you can sell it for $30,000 an ounce, even better right?

Now you may say what about the inflation rate during that time, the price of a banana and everything else went way up too. Well that would be the way that it works with inflation. But if you can still buy the same amount of bananas you maintained your purchasing power. If you kept your money in your pocket then your $300 would buy 1% of what the you could have bought if you bought the gold coin. That is a net loss of purchasing power of 99%. Not good.



But wait you might have put that $300 in the bank earning interest, hey it's insured by the FDIC, what interest rate would the bank have to pay you to turn your $300 into $30,000 in 4 years? Where is the bank going to invest their money in order to get the needed return plus profit to do this for you?

I will keep my PM's, you may have a better investment and choose to keep it, I don't.
In 1985 Gold went down in price over 50% in less than six months. It lost value. A lot of value. In a very short time frame. Will it happen again? Don't know. But its track record is a lot more volatility than is perceived for a "safe investment."
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 13:01   #72
UneasyRider
C.D.B.
 
UneasyRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
In 1985 Gold went down in price over 50% in less than six months. It lost value. A lot of value. In a very short time frame. Will it happen again? Don't know. But its track record is a lot more volatility than is perceived for a "safe investment."
Hey gold isn't for everybody, but it is for me.
__________________
"Freedom ain't Free" Ted Nugent at the House of Blues in Orlando.

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms." - Aristotle,
UneasyRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 13:48   #73
wjv
Senior Member
 
wjv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 12,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by UneasyRider View Post
Now you may say what about the inflation rate during that time, the price of a banana and everything else went way up too. Well that would be the way that it works with inflation. But if you can still buy the same amount of bananas you maintained your purchasing power.
Survival/Preparedness Forum
__________________
Bill
Pacific NW


The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to rule it.
- H. L. Mencken -
wjv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 14:10   #74
1 old 0311
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 4,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
In 1985 Gold went down in price over 50% in less than six months. It lost value. A lot of value. In a very short time frame. Will it happen again? Don't know. But its track record is a lot more volatility than is perceived for a "safe investment."

In 1985 Gold was also responding to it's VERY rapid rise. It took YEARS to get where it's at today.
1 old 0311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 14:42   #75
emt1581
Curious Member
 
emt1581's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Penn's Woods
Posts: 28,137
Something I was thinking about today and I figured I'd ask...

Does inflation exist with PM's? That is...if a suit cost one ounce of gold in 1900...should it still cost an ounce of gold today? Or do things get more expensive even if using PM's?

Furthermore, on an international level. Would the same suit cost the same ounce world-wide or would a suit be less and more depending on the location for some reason?

Thanks!

-Emt1581
emt1581 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 16:41.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,188
394 Members
794 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42