[rome2240sw]

if they were'nt so expensive i would love to try the hornady critical defense. It looks like a round made for everything. Havent seen any CITIZEN test using the 165gr Critical defense ammo through jugs, clothing and other barriers. I was told that they were'nt the best expanding rounds out there.

[DRT]

Originally Posted by rome2240sw

Thanks for the clarification on the HST vs the tactical bonded. But i love the HSTs. Great round but it has a wide HP cavity which makes it more prone to clogging IMHO. But why would you take weigh over speed/power? just a question. ONLY looking answers since it appears alot of yall are more experienced than i am when it comes to these kinds of issues.

Any problem with the HSTs or the Gold Dots clogging going through heavy denim/clothing? i know the rangers are made with a small cavity to reduce clogging.

I already answered the 180gr vs 165gr HST question in a previous response.

In my experience, HSTs/Ranger Ts perform better than Gold Dot after going through heavy clothing. This is illustrated in my pictures above.

My experience is that bullets with small HPs are less robust expanders, particularly after clothing.

[rome2240sw]

one last question, I dont work for law enforcement so am i able to buy the Federal Tactical HST marked LE? I use the white box 180 grain HST now. The ones with the standard brass shells and silver primers. I think im gonna stick to the HST. I just know expansion wont happen if the cavity is clogged with wood

[Glockbuster]

I don´t know the answer to your above question, but I´ve read through this thread and I see you have been provided with good advice on a variety of rounds for SD purposes. They´re all good, and no one is a best fit for every possible situation or scenario. Differences in performance will not be that great.

IMHO, you have to start making up your mind on which to choose for defense purposes and train with it for a while. If you find something you are convinced is better you can always switch, but be sure to practice and practice until you´re good with it and until you´re convinced your weapon is good with it.

All the ammo discussed in this thread is excellent IMO.

[rome2240sw]

Originally Posted by Glockbuster

I don´t know the answer to your above question, but I´ve read through this thread and I see you have been provided with good advice on a variety of rounds for SD purposes. They´re all good, and no one is a best fit for every possible situation or scenario. Differences in performance will not be that great.

IMHO, you have to start making up your mind on which to choose for defense purposes and train with it for a while. If you find something you are convinced is better you can always switch, but be sure to practice and practice until you´re good with it and until you´re convinced your weapon is good with it.

All the ammo discussed in this thread is excellent IMO.

Thanks for the positive reply. I have been running the Federal HST as my main carry load for the .40sw for about 4 1/2 months now. Use to be a true believer when it came to the gold dots but they were a lil expensive for me. But the 180gr HST is the round i choose to carry as well as it has passed tests i have done in the past. Though its not bonded its a great bullet i would trust my life on. My only problem with the HST is one that can happen with any HP ammo, it can get clogged and wont work. But then again that only happend with the HST going through plywood..

[geo57]

Apparently, I have no chance for survival. I'm still using Federal LE 180 gr. Hi-Shok JHP.

[TORCHRIDER]

Originally Posted by geo57

Apparently, I have no chance for survival. I'm still using Federal LE 180 gr. Hi-Shok JHP.

Nope, you are a gonner. Probably bounce right off em.

[Ak.Hiker]

Originally Posted by TORCHRIDER

Nope, you are a gonner. Probably bounce right off em.

Same thing with the Hydra-Shok. They will bounce off too. What happens is over time bad guys develop a resistance to the old school designs.

[geo57]

AK Hiker & Torchrider, love the humor & sarcasm. This " OLD " load I still carry was reported to be about 94% effective from gathered street & duty shootings as late as 10 years ago, but now it's probably not even harmful to one's health taken center mass. The latest bonded offerings; HST, Dots etc., won't be worth a damn either in 10 years, wait and see.

[Glockbuster]

I must join in the laughs as I agree with you guys 100%, I like the non offending touch of humor too. I tried to be as polite as I could in my post.

[rome2240sw]

I understand all the sarcasim but i was only looking for helpful info on personal defense ammo. But i have already found the info i needed as well as I believe i will continue to carry the 180gr HST or downgrade to the 165gr HST. MY faith is still with federal. My only complaint was it doesnt expand well once the cavity is plugged with solid/hard material.

But once again thanks to Don Glock and all who have helped me with my ammo issues. Learned so much from alot of you guys. Ask the local PD anything and its Speer Gold dot 165gr

[Eagle22]

Originally Posted by geo57

AK Hiker & Torchrider, love the humor & sarcasm. This " OLD " load I still carry was reported to be about 94% effective from gathered street & duty shootings as late as 10 years ago, but now it's probably not even harmful to one's health taken center mass. The latest bonded offerings; HST, Dots etc., won't be worth a damn either in 10 years, wait and see.

What is the difference between 94% dead and 100% dead ??
or .72 Expansion vs .65 expansion ?

Dead is Dead.

[geo57]

Originally Posted by Eagle22

What is the difference between 94% dead and 100% dead ??
or .72 Expansion vs .65 expansion ?

Dead is Dead.

I didn't use, nor is the word " dead " the issue here. "Effective" was used, because that was the % a couple reports gave as to their one shot stop to center mass that stopped a threat success reports. Their findings, not mine. Whether you trust or believe them makes no difference and is another matter, but has nothing to do with the meaning of the statement.

I brought up no expansion numbers, you did. But to answer your question, .07

[shotgunred]

If one were to look at real world shooting according to Evan Marshall you should use one of the top three bullets listed. The first number is number of shootings. The second is number of one shot stops. % is the percentage of shot that are one stop shots.

Remington 165 gr Golden Saber 146 137 94%
CCI 155 gr Gold Dot 59 55 93%
Federal 155 gr Hydra Shok 88 82 93%
Federal 180 gr Hydra Shok 65 57 88%

I have always favored the 180's myself but now I am rethinking my logic. Also this type of information highly favors older rounds that have had to be used enough to generate enough information.

Source
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppi...=11&Weight=All

[M&P Shooter]

Originally Posted by DRT

No thanks to 165gr Gold dot unless you live in a nudist colony or near the equator where heavy clothing isn't a concern.

Yeah those 165gr GD's would get stuck in any K-Mart brand flannel

[DRT]

Originally Posted by Glock40guy

Yeah those 165gr GD's would get stuck in any K-Mart brand flannel

Correction, they won't get stuck, just not open up as well as some others. If that doesn't matter to you then load up with em.

[novaDAK]

Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak

Yes.. Garbage.

To often, that list is perpetrated as "the best"... the problem in that test is, I want to see what ammo failed the test. The list is proclaimed as "the best" yet even the author admits it is not all inclusive.

It just annoys me when I see it frequently proclaimed that the list is "the best" when it is better quantified as " the best of what we tested" and list everything that was tested.

I like 180gr Gold Dots and PDX1's.. whether they are on that list or not, really doesn't matter at all to me, and wouldn't even begin to influence my decision on what to carry.

IGF

The list isn't garbage though.

[Preußen]

Originally Posted by shotgunred

If one were to look at real world shooting according to Evan Marshall you should use one of the top three bullets listed. The first number is number of shootings. The second is number of one shot stops. % is the percentage of shot that are one stop shots.

I have always favored the 180's myself but now I am rethinking my logic. Also this type of information highly favors older rounds that have had to be used enough to generate enough information.

Source
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppi...=11&Weight=All

I've said it before and i'll say it again, Evan Marshall & Evan Sanow's "stopping power" books are complete BS...

Choose a cartridge that features 100% positive feeding, excellent accuracy, and good terminal ballistics, and stop worrying about MUZZLE ENERGY, MUZZLE VELOCITY and stopping power

See my sig below for the definition of stopping power ↓

[Eagle22]

Originally Posted by geo57

I didn't use, nor is the word " dead " the issue here. "Effective" was used, because that was the % a couple reports gave as to their one shot stop to center mass that stopped a threat success reports. Their findings, not mine. Whether you trust or believe them makes no difference and is another matter, but has nothing to do with the meaning of the statement.

I brought up no expansion numbers, you did. But to answer your question, .07

lol

Shot until the threat has stopped.