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Old 07-25-2010, 01:08   #41
PghJim
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I am not generally a fan of the 180gr loads for civilian SD. From what I know I would go with the 155GD, 165RT, 155HST, or the 135 Corbon. I see no advantage of the PXD1 165 over the Ranger T, unless you are shooting through glass. That was actually told to me by the Winchester technician putting on demonstrations for local LEO. Another load that has performed well out of the G22, but not so from smaller barrels, is the 155 Federal HS. I would recomend the 165 grain Golden Sabres, except the last time I shot them, there was a lot of muzzle flash. The 180's on RT or HST are OK, and will probably serve you well. I think the FBI protocol has led to some bad ammo choices for civilians when looking at just penetration and expansion. Energy does play a role. I think too much attention has been paid to what the target does to the bullet and not enough on what the bullet does to the target.

For instance the Reminton 125gr 357 magnum round from and 4 or 5" revolver would fail the FBI test, only penetrate to 10 or 11 inches, lose 40% of its weight and have of recovered diameter of 0.60. Yet I would trust that round in a SD situation over most offered in an auto pistol today. However, praticality rules and I carry a Glcok in 40 or 357 sig.

Last edited by PghJim; 07-25-2010 at 01:18..
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Old 07-25-2010, 14:41   #42
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Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
I am not generally a fan of the 180gr loads for civilian SD. From what I know I would go with the 155GD, 165RT, 155HST, or the 135 Corbon. I see no advantage of the PXD1 165 over the Ranger T, unless you are shooting through glass. That was actually told to me by the Winchester technician putting on demonstrations for local LEO. Another load that has performed well out of the G22, but not so from smaller barrels, is the 155 Federal HS. I would recomend the 165 grain Golden Sabres, except the last time I shot them, there was a lot of muzzle flash. The 180's on RT or HST are OK, and will probably serve you well. I think the FBI protocol has led to some bad ammo choices for civilians when looking at just penetration and expansion. Energy does play a role. I think too much attention has been paid to what the target does to the bullet and not enough on what the bullet does to the target.

For instance the Reminton 125gr 357 magnum round from and 4 or 5" revolver would fail the FBI test, only penetrate to 10 or 11 inches, lose 40% of its weight and have of recovered diameter of 0.60. Yet I would trust that round in a SD situation over most offered in an auto pistol today. However, praticality rules and I carry a Glcok in 40 or 357 sig.
I guess all of the bad guys put down with the old 125 grain JHP 357 Magnum forgot to read the FBI test data first. Perhaps the same dynamics are at work when you look at the the street reports of the 135 grain CorBon 40 S&W load as well as the 115 grain 9mm +P+.
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Old 07-25-2010, 17:10   #43
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I was up at my property this weekend and for S&G, I decided to try 180gr HST, 165gr Ranger Tseries, and 165gr gold dot out of my G22 (vs prior test was with G35) through 4 layers of denim into water. I'll post pictures when I get a chance but suffice it to say that it reaffirmed my decision to carry either the HST or Ranger T with equal peace of mind when I have a choice on what to carry. Both retained full weight and expanded more robustly/thoroughly vs gold dot. Additionally, the folded petals on the HST & Ranger are much longer than the gold dot indicating the potential for even larger expansion early on in the penetration process. Lastly, the expanded profiles on the HST & Ranger where sharper and therefore more efficient at cutting tissue.

Expansion (max/min) in inches.

HST: .77/.73
Ranger T: .75/.73
Gold dot: .61/.54

The frontal area, vs diameter, is more applicable for calculating crush volume. By calculating frontal area (average radius ^2 * 3.14) , the HST has approximately 67% more frontal area vs Gold dot. Ranger T has 65% more. Since all 3 penetrate >12", particularly with heavy clothing as an intermediate barrier, I'll take the one that crushes the most tissue in this critical area of penetration.
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Last edited by DRT; 07-27-2010 at 18:41..
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Old 07-26-2010, 12:50   #44
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I use - Winchester Ranger 165gr JHP
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Old 07-27-2010, 16:33   #45
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I was up at my property this weekend and for S&G, I decided to try 180gr HST, 165gr Ranger Tseries, and 165gr gold dot out of my G22 (vs prior test was with G35) through 4 layers of denim into water. I'll post pictures when I get a chance but suffice it to say that it reaffirmed my decision to carry either the HST or Ranger T with equal peace of mind when I have a choice on what to carry. Both retained full weight and expanded more robustly/thoroughly vs gold dot. Additionally, the folded petals on the HST & Ranger are much longer than the gold dot indicating the potential for even larger expansion early on in the penetration process. Lastly, the expanded profiles on the HST & Ranger where sharper and therefore more efficient at cutting tissue.

Expansion (max/min) in inches.

HST: .77/.73
Ranger T: .75/.73
Gold dot: .61/.54

The frontal area, vs diameter, is more applicable for calculating crush volume. By calculating frontal area (average radius ^2 * 3.14) , the HST has approximately 67% more frontal area vs Gold dot. Ranger T has 65% more. Since all 3 penetrate >12", particularly with heavy clothing as an intermediate barrier, I'll take the one that crushes the most tissue in this critical area of penetration.
which 180gr HSTs did you use? the white box or the tactical bonded version?

IM suprise the 165gr Gold dot didnt expand more than .61/.54
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Old 07-27-2010, 16:38   #46
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I'm a true believer when it comes to the Federal HSTs. Practice with federal ball ammo and currenty defend my home, me, my family, and car with 180gr Federal HSTs. Believe im gonna move down to the faster 165gr HSTs. Maybe the tactical bonded versions if they will sale them to me at lawmens.

one other thing, at the gun show the other day a guy told me that all the winchester PDX1 and Ranger loads are hot loads. Said that they are hard on guns that arent completely made of steel. How true is that? cant afford either round just a question. 155gr ranger T goes from $40-$47... Out of my price range, rather go with the Federal HST
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Old 07-27-2010, 18:46   #47
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which 180gr HSTs did you use? the white box or the tactical bonded version?

IM suprise the 165gr Gold dot didnt expand more than .61/.54
It was in the TACTICAL box but HST's are NOT bonded. Federal also makes a TACTICAL BONDED round but it's not an HST. Don't confuse the two.

I;m not surprised at all regarding the 165gr Gold Dot's performance. My personal experience is that gold dots don't expand very well after heavy clothing/denim. They work pretty well when shooting them into bare water, gel, wet pack, etc. but put heavy clothing in front of them and they don't open up as well as other premium designs. This is clearly seen in the pictures above.

Last edited by DRT; 07-27-2010 at 19:10..
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Old 07-27-2010, 18:47   #48
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Pictures added to my posting above.
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Old 07-27-2010, 18:59   #49
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I'm a true believer when it comes to the Federal HSTs. Practice with federal ball ammo and currenty defend my home, me, my family, and car with 180gr Federal HSTs. Believe im gonna move down to the faster 165gr HSTs. Maybe the tactical bonded versions if they will sale them to me at lawmens.

one other thing, at the gun show the other day a guy told me that all the winchester PDX1 and Ranger loads are hot loads. Said that they are hard on guns that arent completely made of steel. How true is that? cant afford either round just a question. 155gr ranger T goes from $40-$47... Out of my price range, rather go with the Federal HST

My experience is that the 180gr HST is superior to 165gr HST due to it's larger, more robust expansion performance. Stick with the 180gr version.

155gr Ranger is NOT the Tseries design. It's a conventional HP design. The good stuff is 165gr (RA40TA) or 180gr (RA40T).

Last edited by DRT; 07-27-2010 at 19:00..
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Old 07-27-2010, 19:31   #50
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It was in the TACTICAL box but HST's are NOT bonded. Federal also makes a TACTICAL BONDED round but it's not an HST. Don't confuse the two.

I;m not surprised at all regarding the 165gr Gold Dot's performance. My personal experience is that gold dots don't expand very well after heavy clothing/denim. They work pretty well when shooting them into bare water, gel, wet pack, etc. but put heavy clothing in front of them and they don't open up as well as other premium designs. This is clearly seen in the pictures above.
Thanks for the clarification on the HST vs the tactical bonded. But i love the HSTs. Great round but it has a wide HP cavity which makes it more prone to clogging IMHO. But why would you take weigh over speed/power? just a question. ONLY looking answers since it appears alot of yall are more experienced than i am when it comes to these kinds of issues.

Any problem with the HSTs or the Gold Dots clogging going through heavy denim/clothing? i know the rangers are made with a small cavity to reduce clogging.
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Old 07-27-2010, 19:33   #51
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if they were'nt so expensive i would love to try the hornady critical defense. It looks like a round made for everything. Havent seen any CITIZEN test using the 165gr Critical defense ammo through jugs, clothing and other barriers. I was told that they were'nt the best expanding rounds out there.
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Old 07-27-2010, 19:46   #52
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Thanks for the clarification on the HST vs the tactical bonded. But i love the HSTs. Great round but it has a wide HP cavity which makes it more prone to clogging IMHO. But why would you take weigh over speed/power? just a question. ONLY looking answers since it appears alot of yall are more experienced than i am when it comes to these kinds of issues.

Any problem with the HSTs or the Gold Dots clogging going through heavy denim/clothing? i know the rangers are made with a small cavity to reduce clogging.
I already answered the 180gr vs 165gr HST question in a previous response.

In my experience, HSTs/Ranger Ts perform better than Gold Dot after going through heavy clothing. This is illustrated in my pictures above.

My experience is that bullets with small HPs are less robust expanders, particularly after clothing.

Last edited by DRT; 07-27-2010 at 19:48..
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Old 07-27-2010, 21:20   #53
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one last question, I dont work for law enforcement so am i able to buy the Federal Tactical HST marked LE? I use the white box 180 grain HST now. The ones with the standard brass shells and silver primers. I think im gonna stick to the HST. I just know expansion wont happen if the cavity is clogged with wood
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:53   #54
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I don´t know the answer to your above question, but I´ve read through this thread and I see you have been provided with good advice on a variety of rounds for SD purposes. They´re all good, and no one is a best fit for every possible situation or scenario. Differences in performance will not be that great.

IMHO, you have to start making up your mind on which to choose for defense purposes and train with it for a while. If you find something you are convinced is better you can always switch, but be sure to practice and practice until you´re good with it and until you´re convinced your weapon is good with it.

All the ammo discussed in this thread is excellent IMO.
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:52   #55
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I don´t know the answer to your above question, but I´ve read through this thread and I see you have been provided with good advice on a variety of rounds for SD purposes. They´re all good, and no one is a best fit for every possible situation or scenario. Differences in performance will not be that great.

IMHO, you have to start making up your mind on which to choose for defense purposes and train with it for a while. If you find something you are convinced is better you can always switch, but be sure to practice and practice until you´re good with it and until you´re convinced your weapon is good with it.

All the ammo discussed in this thread is excellent IMO.
Thanks for the positive reply. I have been running the Federal HST as my main carry load for the .40sw for about 4 1/2 months now. Use to be a true believer when it came to the gold dots but they were a lil expensive for me. But the 180gr HST is the round i choose to carry as well as it has passed tests i have done in the past. Though its not bonded its a great bullet i would trust my life on. My only problem with the HST is one that can happen with any HP ammo, it can get clogged and wont work. But then again that only happend with the HST going through plywood..
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:30   #56
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Apparently, I have no chance for survival. I'm still using Federal LE 180 gr. Hi-Shok JHP.

Last edited by geo57; 07-29-2010 at 11:33..
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:56   #57
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Apparently, I have no chance for survival. I'm still using Federal LE 180 gr. Hi-Shok JHP.
Nope, you are a gonner. Probably bounce right off em.
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Old 07-29-2010, 23:47   #58
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Nope, you are a gonner. Probably bounce right off em.
Same thing with the Hydra-Shok. They will bounce off too. What happens is over time bad guys develop a resistance to the old school designs.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:01   #59
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AK Hiker & Torchrider, love the humor & sarcasm. This " OLD " load I still carry was reported to be about 94% effective from gathered street & duty shootings as late as 10 years ago, but now it's probably not even harmful to one's health taken center mass. The latest bonded offerings; HST, Dots etc., won't be worth a damn either in 10 years, wait and see.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:11   #60
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I must join in the laughs as I agree with you guys 100%, I like the non offending touch of humor too. I tried to be as polite as I could in my post.
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