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Old 06-08-2010, 21:54   #26
rome2240sw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak View Post
What in the world does traveling have to do with this?

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I was only stating that i could pay $3 more and go to Palmetto State Armory and get the 180gr Federal HSTs compared to 22.95 for the Federal 135gr JHP sold at walmart. 50 Rounds of 180gr HSTs who could beat that. I can say tho, i like nickle plated brass over brass. But thats what you sacrafice when you go cheap.

But I am down for the 180gr gold dots if you dont care too much about expansion or over penetration. Like stated before they are good if glass, car doors, or light cover is involved. But as far as coats or flesh the 165gr gold dots will do.
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Old 06-08-2010, 22:00   #27
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PDX1, or go for winchesters LEO over run, 180gr bonded.
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Old 06-08-2010, 22:01   #28
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the federal loads Im referring to are the XM40HC
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Old 06-08-2010, 22:12   #29
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Originally Posted by rome2240sw View Post
50 Rounds of 180gr HSTs who could beat that. I can say tho, i like nickle plated brass over brass. But thats what you sacrafice when you go cheap.


nickel plate brass makes no difference in quality guns. that's why the government contracts often don't include it. it's seen as an unnecessary expense.
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Old 06-08-2010, 22:25   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rome2240sw View Post
I was only stating that i could pay $3 more and go to Palmetto State Armory and get the 180gr Federal HSTs compared to 22.95 for the Federal 135gr JHP sold at walmart. 50 Rounds of 180gr HSTs who could beat that. I can say tho, i like nickle plated brass over brass. But thats what you sacrafice when you go cheap.

But I am down for the 180gr gold dots if you dont care too much about expansion or over penetration. Like stated before they are good if glass, car doors, or light cover is involved. But as far as coats or flesh the 165gr gold dots will do.
I like them all, I just misunderstood what you meant by "traveling", and was trying to understand how that would effect your ammo choice...

I like the 180's.. I don't think there's necessarily an over penetration issue..

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Old 06-08-2010, 23:12   #31
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What i was only stating is that where i normally go to pick up SD ammo they mostly have the expensive stuff. You know, 20 rounds for $20 and so on. I was only saying i rather go and get the 180gr than the 135gr. And i was only speaking of over penetration with the 180gr gold dots. Those things travel. But i have no problems with the 180gr HSTs it was just before I did not know where to find them but now i do.
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Old 06-09-2010, 05:52   #32
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Federal 180gr HST or Speer Gold Dot 180g in my G22 and G27

165g would be my second choice.
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Old 06-09-2010, 18:06   #33
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Stopped by Palmetto State Armory today and so much ammo to choose from. Hornady tap 155gr for 16.99 and dozens of other brands for wide selection of calibers from handgun to rifle to shotgun. Great store great customer service and got a free hat. Picked up a 50 round box of Federal 180gr JHP for 24.99 plus tax. If your in or around columbia SC go check them out.

+1 for Palmetto State Armory. Cant wait till they open their indoor shooting range.
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Old 07-21-2010, 12:20   #34
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I know the thread has been dead for a while, but anyone have any good luck with hornady critical defense in 165gr? does it travel thru wood or glass well?

while doing ammo test, i had a 180gr HST get clogged going thru a half inch piece of wood and then passing straight through 4 jugs of water without expanding. found he round in the grass with wood stuffed in the cavity. Also had it punch through 5 old skateboard decks into 3 jugs of water. Still no expansion. or maybe i should have used paper and water in the jugs.
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Old 07-21-2010, 15:46   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
180gr HST
180gr Ranger T
165gr Ranger T
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Old 07-21-2010, 17:15   #36
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155gr Gold Dot fan here. But my second favorite is the 165gr Gold Dot.
I agree!

If Gold Dot cannot be had, I would look for something else that is 'BONDED'

I believe some of the Ranger ammo is.

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Old 07-23-2010, 00:02   #37
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i'm looking for something that would pass through a wooden, thick cloth, or glass bearier and still expand. I like the gold dots and the only place i can find them is at Lawmans and its the gold dot duty ammo. Dont know if they sale it or the Federal Tactical HST to civillians. Looking for something that would expand with no problems, may need to try a lighter load like a 165gr or 155gr.
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Old 07-23-2010, 01:37   #38
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Sigh... Not this garbage again

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garbage?
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:15   #39
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Originally Posted by novaDAK View Post
garbage?
Yes.. Garbage.

To often, that list is perpetrated as "the best"... the problem in that test is, I want to see what ammo failed the test. The list is proclaimed as "the best" yet even the author admits it is not all inclusive.

It just annoys me when I see it frequently proclaimed that the list is "the best" when it is better quantified as " the best of what we tested" and list everything that was tested.

I like 180gr Gold Dots and PDX1's.. whether they are on that list or not, really doesn't matter at all to me, and wouldn't even begin to influence my decision on what to carry.

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Old 07-23-2010, 22:38   #40
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I have shot 40 S&W loads in weights of 135 grain up to 200 grain and have never run across a load that could not be put to use as a SD loading. Some are geared more to deep penetration like the DT 200 grain hard cast but the hollow points that I have shot would all work just fine for SD as long as the shooter did his or her part.
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Old 07-25-2010, 01:08   #41
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I am not generally a fan of the 180gr loads for civilian SD. From what I know I would go with the 155GD, 165RT, 155HST, or the 135 Corbon. I see no advantage of the PXD1 165 over the Ranger T, unless you are shooting through glass. That was actually told to me by the Winchester technician putting on demonstrations for local LEO. Another load that has performed well out of the G22, but not so from smaller barrels, is the 155 Federal HS. I would recomend the 165 grain Golden Sabres, except the last time I shot them, there was a lot of muzzle flash. The 180's on RT or HST are OK, and will probably serve you well. I think the FBI protocol has led to some bad ammo choices for civilians when looking at just penetration and expansion. Energy does play a role. I think too much attention has been paid to what the target does to the bullet and not enough on what the bullet does to the target.

For instance the Reminton 125gr 357 magnum round from and 4 or 5" revolver would fail the FBI test, only penetrate to 10 or 11 inches, lose 40% of its weight and have of recovered diameter of 0.60. Yet I would trust that round in a SD situation over most offered in an auto pistol today. However, praticality rules and I carry a Glcok in 40 or 357 sig.

Last edited by PghJim; 07-25-2010 at 01:18..
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Old 07-25-2010, 14:41   #42
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I am not generally a fan of the 180gr loads for civilian SD. From what I know I would go with the 155GD, 165RT, 155HST, or the 135 Corbon. I see no advantage of the PXD1 165 over the Ranger T, unless you are shooting through glass. That was actually told to me by the Winchester technician putting on demonstrations for local LEO. Another load that has performed well out of the G22, but not so from smaller barrels, is the 155 Federal HS. I would recomend the 165 grain Golden Sabres, except the last time I shot them, there was a lot of muzzle flash. The 180's on RT or HST are OK, and will probably serve you well. I think the FBI protocol has led to some bad ammo choices for civilians when looking at just penetration and expansion. Energy does play a role. I think too much attention has been paid to what the target does to the bullet and not enough on what the bullet does to the target.

For instance the Reminton 125gr 357 magnum round from and 4 or 5" revolver would fail the FBI test, only penetrate to 10 or 11 inches, lose 40% of its weight and have of recovered diameter of 0.60. Yet I would trust that round in a SD situation over most offered in an auto pistol today. However, praticality rules and I carry a Glcok in 40 or 357 sig.
I guess all of the bad guys put down with the old 125 grain JHP 357 Magnum forgot to read the FBI test data first. Perhaps the same dynamics are at work when you look at the the street reports of the 135 grain CorBon 40 S&W load as well as the 115 grain 9mm +P+.
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Old 07-25-2010, 17:10   #43
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I was up at my property this weekend and for S&G, I decided to try 180gr HST, 165gr Ranger Tseries, and 165gr gold dot out of my G22 (vs prior test was with G35) through 4 layers of denim into water. I'll post pictures when I get a chance but suffice it to say that it reaffirmed my decision to carry either the HST or Ranger T with equal peace of mind when I have a choice on what to carry. Both retained full weight and expanded more robustly/thoroughly vs gold dot. Additionally, the folded petals on the HST & Ranger are much longer than the gold dot indicating the potential for even larger expansion early on in the penetration process. Lastly, the expanded profiles on the HST & Ranger where sharper and therefore more efficient at cutting tissue.

Expansion (max/min) in inches.

HST: .77/.73
Ranger T: .75/.73
Gold dot: .61/.54

The frontal area, vs diameter, is more applicable for calculating crush volume. By calculating frontal area (average radius ^2 * 3.14) , the HST has approximately 67% more frontal area vs Gold dot. Ranger T has 65% more. Since all 3 penetrate >12", particularly with heavy clothing as an intermediate barrier, I'll take the one that crushes the most tissue in this critical area of penetration.
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Old 07-26-2010, 12:50   #44
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I use - Winchester Ranger 165gr JHP
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Old 07-27-2010, 16:33   #45
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Originally Posted by DRT View Post
I was up at my property this weekend and for S&G, I decided to try 180gr HST, 165gr Ranger Tseries, and 165gr gold dot out of my G22 (vs prior test was with G35) through 4 layers of denim into water. I'll post pictures when I get a chance but suffice it to say that it reaffirmed my decision to carry either the HST or Ranger T with equal peace of mind when I have a choice on what to carry. Both retained full weight and expanded more robustly/thoroughly vs gold dot. Additionally, the folded petals on the HST & Ranger are much longer than the gold dot indicating the potential for even larger expansion early on in the penetration process. Lastly, the expanded profiles on the HST & Ranger where sharper and therefore more efficient at cutting tissue.

Expansion (max/min) in inches.

HST: .77/.73
Ranger T: .75/.73
Gold dot: .61/.54

The frontal area, vs diameter, is more applicable for calculating crush volume. By calculating frontal area (average radius ^2 * 3.14) , the HST has approximately 67% more frontal area vs Gold dot. Ranger T has 65% more. Since all 3 penetrate >12", particularly with heavy clothing as an intermediate barrier, I'll take the one that crushes the most tissue in this critical area of penetration.
which 180gr HSTs did you use? the white box or the tactical bonded version?

IM suprise the 165gr Gold dot didnt expand more than .61/.54
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Old 07-27-2010, 16:38   #46
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I'm a true believer when it comes to the Federal HSTs. Practice with federal ball ammo and currenty defend my home, me, my family, and car with 180gr Federal HSTs. Believe im gonna move down to the faster 165gr HSTs. Maybe the tactical bonded versions if they will sale them to me at lawmens.

one other thing, at the gun show the other day a guy told me that all the winchester PDX1 and Ranger loads are hot loads. Said that they are hard on guns that arent completely made of steel. How true is that? cant afford either round just a question. 155gr ranger T goes from $40-$47... Out of my price range, rather go with the Federal HST
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Old 07-27-2010, 18:46   #47
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which 180gr HSTs did you use? the white box or the tactical bonded version?

IM suprise the 165gr Gold dot didnt expand more than .61/.54
It was in the TACTICAL box but HST's are NOT bonded. Federal also makes a TACTICAL BONDED round but it's not an HST. Don't confuse the two.

I;m not surprised at all regarding the 165gr Gold Dot's performance. My personal experience is that gold dots don't expand very well after heavy clothing/denim. They work pretty well when shooting them into bare water, gel, wet pack, etc. but put heavy clothing in front of them and they don't open up as well as other premium designs. This is clearly seen in the pictures above.

Last edited by DRT; 07-27-2010 at 19:10..
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Old 07-27-2010, 18:47   #48
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Pictures added to my posting above.
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Old 07-27-2010, 18:59   #49
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I'm a true believer when it comes to the Federal HSTs. Practice with federal ball ammo and currenty defend my home, me, my family, and car with 180gr Federal HSTs. Believe im gonna move down to the faster 165gr HSTs. Maybe the tactical bonded versions if they will sale them to me at lawmens.

one other thing, at the gun show the other day a guy told me that all the winchester PDX1 and Ranger loads are hot loads. Said that they are hard on guns that arent completely made of steel. How true is that? cant afford either round just a question. 155gr ranger T goes from $40-$47... Out of my price range, rather go with the Federal HST

My experience is that the 180gr HST is superior to 165gr HST due to it's larger, more robust expansion performance. Stick with the 180gr version.

155gr Ranger is NOT the Tseries design. It's a conventional HP design. The good stuff is 165gr (RA40TA) or 180gr (RA40T).

Last edited by DRT; 07-27-2010 at 19:00..
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Old 07-27-2010, 19:31   #50
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It was in the TACTICAL box but HST's are NOT bonded. Federal also makes a TACTICAL BONDED round but it's not an HST. Don't confuse the two.

I;m not surprised at all regarding the 165gr Gold Dot's performance. My personal experience is that gold dots don't expand very well after heavy clothing/denim. They work pretty well when shooting them into bare water, gel, wet pack, etc. but put heavy clothing in front of them and they don't open up as well as other premium designs. This is clearly seen in the pictures above.
Thanks for the clarification on the HST vs the tactical bonded. But i love the HSTs. Great round but it has a wide HP cavity which makes it more prone to clogging IMHO. But why would you take weigh over speed/power? just a question. ONLY looking answers since it appears alot of yall are more experienced than i am when it comes to these kinds of issues.

Any problem with the HSTs or the Gold Dots clogging going through heavy denim/clothing? i know the rangers are made with a small cavity to reduce clogging.
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