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Old 06-13-2010, 21:20   #151
Gray_Rider
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Also. Read Jefferson Davis' farewell to congress. All knew the reasons the South was seceeding. All knew the legality of it and the reasons for it.

BTW Big Bird. Virginia was the first state to outlaw the importation of slaves.


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Last edited by Gray_Rider; 06-17-2010 at 17:02.. Reason: Correction of error. (Thanks Pro Gun Liberal)
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Old 06-13-2010, 21:32   #152
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Nice to see you again Big Bird.

Seems Nat Turner's slave revolt that involved the murder of dozens of innocent whites kind of fizzled out for lack of a following amongst the slave populace. Same with your proable "hero" John Brown. Another cold blooded murderer of his own people. Same thing happened (yet again) with dear old "honest" Abe and the emancipation proclamation. It was penned to forment a slave revolt behind Confederate lines. Funny how each time the stakes were raised there was NO general uprising. Over 150 years of out and out lies and the sad mistake of blacks to believe the same lies over and over and over since the "40 acres and a mule" doozie doesn't change the facts. Black slaves (were on the whole) treated better here than at any time in history or on any other contenient on the face of the earth including their beloved Africa. Slavery exists there on a grand scale to this day and goes back into the sands of time for centuries. And our "friends" the Moors (whose religion blacks flock to due to a 'hatred' of the white man's religion") were the very people who were the go betweens between said African kings (who enslaved their own people more savagely than can commonly be imagined) and the "evil" white Yankee slavers who brought the poor wretches to the new world for rum and trinkets. Yes. If any black wants to go back to "Merry Old Africa" and live he is welcome to do so. Your big buddy "Honest Abe" had plans in the works to ship all blacks out of the country back to Africa or anywhere they chose to go. Hundreds were shipped back of their own free will and were starved and run off by their own people. Read something other than fiction once in a while.

The Indians took and kept slaves. White, black, "hispanic" and other Indians.

No reproach:

The Spanish enslaved and worked whole Indian cultures into the ground for centuries.

No reproach:

The English enslaved thousands of Irish and Scots and worked orphan children to death by the thousands in their work houses; "Oliver Twist" was based on real happenings remember, but the working class English were so broken hearted over a piece of fiction, "Uncle Tom's Cabin" that they kept the Crown from entering into the WSI.

Tens of thousands of Chinese were worked to death and tens of thousands more innocent women and girls were sold into sexual slavery by their own and our own people.

No reproach:

This country, after its independence, was a slave holding country for 98 years before the WSI.

No reproach:

Brazil kept slavery for twenty years after the WSI ended and then ended it peacefully with the above mentioned malmutation. (The rembursment of the cost of the slaves to the owners by public funds.

No reproach:

Federal soldiers raped the black women first and pilliaged the slave's hovel with the same lust and depravity they raped the white southern women and the manor born.

No reproach:

The US government treated blacks like 2nd class citizens for decades after the WSI, well past WWII and Korea, and poisioned race relations in the South that continues to this day. Their lackies in the media have the blood of tens of thousands black and white on their hands.

No reproach:

The Southern states were ending slavery through peacefull malmutation. The freeing of slaves after their owner's death and by other means that would not leave their owners destitute. Remember. This was at the beginning of the industrial revolution. Slave labor fed and clothed the WORLD for centuries. It was the only thing that worked here in the colonies. They weren't kept for raping and to have someone to whip on despite almost two centuries of Northern lies to the contary. Slaves cost the amount of a new car today, and were crucial to the survival of the nation. Rabid aboltionists wanted them all set free with no education or any preparedness whatsoever for the real world. They got their way. Worked out pretty good didn't it?

The war wasn't about the ending of slavery. That was happening peacefully for decades before WSI. Like it or not it was soon to become cost prohibitive. The war was brought on by the same measures that we fought our first war for independence for. Taxation without representiation.

Lincoln and the congress passed the Morrill Tariff, (the highest import tax in history) that raised the import tax rate from 20% to 40 %! The southern cotton industry was devastated. The South had only 30% of the population but paid 80% of the tariffs collected. The Southerers seceeded to escape this punitive tax and Lincoln invaded to re-secure said tax to slake the demands of his Northern industrailist supporters.
The only way to recoup this punishing tax was to invade the Southern Confederacy and drive it back into the Union at bayonet point. It cost the country over 700,000 dead and hundreds of millions of 1860's dollars. It involved massive unpunished (this side of the grave) war crimes and the wanton destruction of an area the size of a 180 mile swath of desolation from New York City to Chicago. Don't preach to me about the plight of the Southern slaves Big Bird. Don't forget the massive desertions in the Union Army when Lincoln "freed" all the Southern slaves while leaving all in Northern and overran Southern states still in their chains. Lincoln was no friend of the slaves. I have said before and I will say again. Slavery was the South's achellie's heel and is the probagation of one of the the biggest lies in the history of mankind. That being. "The "Civil War" was fought to free the slaves!" Funny how there were slave owners on each side and U.S.Grant kept his wife's slaves till December of 1865. Robert E. Lee freed all the slaves that were left to him in (if memory serves) his wife's father's will, well before the war.

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The slaves didn't revolt. Their sacrifices free and slave kept the Confederacy in the fight whether you wish to accept that fact or not. Look up John Jaspar sometime. Or Bill Yopp. "Ten cent Bill" as he was known. Yopp, a former slave and Confederate soldier, collected dimes from passerby (when dimes had the same buying power as dollars today) and bought gifts, cakes, food, and personal items to his former Confederate soldier (and former master) then pennyless and living in the Old Confederates' home in the late 1800s.

No one goes to the "Black churches in Atlanta" (or any other black church) and preaches anything concerning the war but sedition and hatred. Black men have become disposable in the modern urban community. Black women demand scarce more than fertilization from the average black male, which only serves to produce more black voters for white politicians that promise more and more of the 40 acres and a mule fiasco that has worked so well for so many decades.

And you think slavery was ended!!?? One set of chains was exchanged for another!!
Wow! That's quite some vindication there. Still doesn't change the fact that the Confederacy enshrined in its constitution the EVIL, IMMORAL, CRUEL, and simply DISGRACEFUL institution of slavery. It had no intention of getting rid of it. If you read speeches by Southern Politicians agitating for war in the various state legislatures there are NUMEROUS references to slavery being the primary cause of the war... Do I need to post VP of the Confederacy Andrew Stephen's "Cornerstone Speech" AGAIN for you?

Again, how trite it must seem to you that another man be sold as nothing more than property and his value tied to nothing more than his ability to increase the purse of his master! It still astounds me that someone who professes a love for the Founding of this country and values like freedom, etc can also embrace a government that was so PROFOUNDLY flawed at the most fundamental level!

The current condition of blacks in this country, their previous treatment, how someone else practiced slavery is all irrelevant to the discussion. And its simply a childish attempt by you to evade the RAW TRUTH! It was WRONG! How simple...yet true WRONG!

Of course the Army of 4,000+ pro-slavery southerners that invaded Kansas in 1856 in order to make sure it became a slave state were simply defending their rights? (Bleeding Kansas) No Reproach?

Southern apologists like yourself LOVE to point out that the country allowed slavery for 96 years since its founding... The truth is within 12 years of adopting the Constitution most northern states effectively outlawed slavery. The ONLY reason it was never outlawed on a Federal level is the Southerners enjoyed a balance of power in their favor and it never was politically possible. That's the simple truth. Southerners wouldn't abolish slavery at the Federal level. If you think that's a simplification I submit that its not. Since the founding this country struggled with the issue. Read about the Missouri Compromise of 1820 or the Great Compromise of 1850 (Kansas and Nebraska Territories) All related to slavery and the balance of power in the Federal Government. Southerners wanted more slave states (and the seats in Congress and the Senate that came with new states) to keep the pro-abolitionist North from outnumbering them and outlawing slavery. Its really that simple. The Civil War started because the balance of power had finally swung against the South in the election of 1860 and they knew it was only a matter of time before slavery was gone...

So to recap. Slavery is/was wrong. The Confederacy wanted to preserve slavery and the Confederate Constitution made slavery a mandatory legal condition in every Southern State--thereby abrogating any states rights issue on this matter. Slavery was about greed and exploitation. Nobody buys the White Man's burden routine anymore.

How blacks have fared or how they have been treated since the Civil War does not make the original sin any less WRONG or EVIL or CRUEL or DISGRACEFUL.... You do know the difference between right and WRONG?
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Old 06-14-2010, 11:29   #153
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Yes "Jethro" I do know the difference between right and wrong and I know what built this country when nothing else would. Cotton and Tobacco and Slave labor. I know its hard for you to accept but that's what did it! I have held forth on this subject and the evenual use of slavery to establish the country when ALL ELSE FAILED! As I have stated before, NOTHING ELSE WORKED! Agreed, we should have let the Black African kings pilliage, rape and enslave their peoples to their heart's content and let this country sink into misery and failure till say the Spanish took over and used the exact same slavery system only to a far more horrific extent as they did in Central and South America. We would have had a Spanish speaking country like Brazil or Mexico is now. SOMEONE WOULD HAVE DONE IT! Would that have made you happy? It would tickled Hitler, Tojo, and Stalin in the '40s! You still wish to blame all the evils of slavery on a country that existed for four years. Of course the South favored holding on to its slaves. It still needed slave labor to produce its crops and feed its people including, JETHERO, its slaves. Yes, where would they have gone overnight? Canada? The South depended on COTTON and to a lesser extent TOBACCO. It took massive amounts of labor that COULD NOT be met by the existing white population or by industrial means which DID NOT EXIST IN THE SOUTH! There was no other way till the industrial revolution caught up with the farming south. This was why slavery was used as the scapegoat and why Lincoln tried to fester up a slave rebellion throughout the war. I say again. IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! Thousands of free blacks and slaves served the Confederacy. Had there been the hatred you abolitonists said there was, (and that the North stired up for decades after the war) the South wouldn't have lasted a week. The truth is overwhelming but it has been ignored and papered over. The North only had ONE excuse for the invasion, warcrimes and destruction of one half of the country. Slavery. AND that arguement wasn't brought forth till about 1862 and the South was at least holding its own and slaughtering Yankees like invaders should be slaughtered.

When you fuss and fluster about slavery in the Confederacy, don't talk with your mouth full. Slave labor provided what was needed when it was needed. NOTHING ELSE DID JETHRO! Cotton plantations cut the average family's cost of clothing themselves from 80% of their annual income down to 20%. That left mucho $$ for other products and the industrial revolution really took off to meet the need of all those new consumers and led this country to the top of the heap in far less than 200 years. (But America is evil I suppose and deserves to be taken over by the mud hut countries as it is now right?)

Where did all the slave grown cotton go to? Northern cotton mills that employed millions and that clothed not only the Union but a great portion of the world. But no, lets let the cotton fields go to the boil weevel, let the Southern economy crash leaving the South like Ireland after the potato famine, and thousands go unemployed across the world just so we can end slavery overnight! The damage people like you did to this country took well over 130 years to even start to heal. Just so you could force an end to slavery that was ended peacefully everywhere else except for Hati. And we all have seen how that little experiment worked out didn't we? Remember the late earthquake there and the massive aid it has taken just to keep that country in existance to start with?

Warts 'n all Jethro, slavery WORKED! This country provides a haven for blacks that is a million times better than ANY black run country or to a lesser extent any other industrial country in the world. Black slavery was a "cornerstone" of that success. Deal with it!

I'll bet not one black in ten thousand would go back to "the promised land" of Africa, but they sure can cuss the white man who brought them here even if it was in chains. They were fed, housed, clothed, and given medical attention. They had none of that in Africa then or now, but according to you, in four years the South was responsible for all the "evils" of slavery the world has ever known.

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Old 06-14-2010, 13:17   #154
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As an aside to everyone here. I do not, (nor have I in the past) condone slavery in any form. All I'm saying is that it was a system that worked for centuries and was THE CORNERSTONE of the founding of this country. Warts and all, it was the only thing that worked under the circumstances that existed till the industrial revolution. Without slave grown cotton and tobacco the colonies would have floundered. They WERE floundering. There is no two ways around it. No one, and formostly the slaves involved, would have flourished here. The earliest attempts to colonize America were failing till tobacco was found to be THE cash crop that everyone wanted. Slave labor made it happen. It was sad nothing else worked but facts are facts and they are irrefutable in this arguement even if ignored or brushed aside. The founding fathers did not want slavery but there was no way to be rid of it either and still flourish as a nation.

The North invaded a peace loving non aggressive people and utterly destroyed it for the reasons I have repeatedly stated. Freeing the slaves was NEVER the "prime directive". The unconstutional forcing of the Southern states back into the Union for the collection of taxes and the use of Southern ports was. I WILL NOT however probagate the great lie that "Lincoln freed the slaves" nor that the war was fought to free them. The war did hinge on HOW slavery was to end. One by the peacefull use of malmutation that was in place and gradually phasing out the system. The other was the unconstutional and savage war that cost this country over 700,000 dead and tens of thousands more in wounded and maimed. I simply contend that the purchace was not worth the cost, and I believe the proof of that is also irrefutable. The "plight" of blacks in America can be traced directly back to the war and its aftermath. As Jefferson Davis predicted, the truth IS being heard.

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Old 06-17-2010, 04:53   #155
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Also. Read Jefferson Davis' farewell to congress. All knew the reasons the South was seceeding. All knew the legality of it and the reasons for it.

BTW Big Bird. Virginia was the first state to outlaw the importation of slaves.

The US government to this day has not outlawed the importation of slaves.

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The United States outlawed the importation of slaves in 1808:
An Act to Prohibit the Importation of Slaves into any Port or Place Within the Jurisdiction of the United States, From and After the First Day of January, in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Eight Hundred and Eight
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Old 06-17-2010, 16:43   #156
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I stand corrected Pro Gun. I will re-check my facts and post further if the need arises!

However, thousands of slaves were brought into the country, well after this time by Yankee slavers and other countries mostly to the Spanish colonies to the south, and the flag that most ships flew was "Old Glory". No one would risk a "confrontation" with a ship flying the US flag. The South never had an offical slave ship line, nor did the Southern Cross (Confederate battle flag or Navy Jack) fly over the slave ships.

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Old 06-23-2010, 14:16   #157
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Simple fact...

After slavery was prohibited in the South and all the Confederate slaves were freed by Lincolns famous Emancipation Proclamation...

Some Union states still had slavery and it was still legal under the US FLAG.
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Old 06-23-2010, 15:35   #158
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Simple fact...

After slavery was prohibited in the South and all the Confederate slaves were freed by Lincolns famous Emancipation Proclamation...

Some Union states still had slavery and it was still legal under the US FLAG.
actually, even all of the southern slaves weren't freed, since Lincoln made an exception for the loyal southern and border areas. The EP allows them to carve out specific areas where slaves were to be freed and it ONLY included areas in rebellion, not loyal areas.

I think Big Bird also overlooked that the U.S. Constitution specifically allowed for slavery until the 14th amendment in 1868. So are far as "enshrining evil slavery" our constitution contains as much as the CSA's did.
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Old 06-23-2010, 15:38   #159
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Here's something interesting to me - I'm sure you are already aware that the CSA, eveil and racist as they were, had native american soldiers and even a native American general, Gen. Stand Watie, but there is even less info about the black confederates:
Quote:


By Scott Williams


Black Confederates Why haven't we heard more about them? National Park Service historian, Ed Bearrs, stated, "I don't want to call it a conspiracy to ignore the role of Blacks both above and below the Mason-Dixon line, but it was definitely a tendency that began around 1910" Historian, Erwin L. Jordan, Jr., calls it a "cover-up" which started back in 1865. He writes, "During my research, I came across instances where Black men stated they were soldiers, but you can plainly see where 'soldier' is crossed out and 'body servant' inserted, or 'teamster' on pension applications." Another black historian, Roland Young, says he is not surprised that blacks fought. He explains that "some, if not most, Black southerners would support their country" and that by doing so they were "demonstrating it's possible to hate the system of slavery and love one's country." This is the very same reaction that most African Americans showed during the American Revolution, where they fought for the colonies, even though the British offered them freedom if they fought for them.

It has been estimated that over 65,000 Southern blacks were in the Confederate ranks. Over 13,000 of these, "saw the elephant" also known as meeting the enemy in combat. These Black Confederates included both slave and free. The Confederate Congress did not approve blacks to be officially enlisted as soldiers (except as musicians), until late in the war. But in the ranks it was a different story. Many Confederate officers did not obey the mandates of politicians, they frequently enlisted blacks with the simple criteria, "Will you fight?" Historian Ervin Jordan, explains that "biracial units" were frequently organized "by local Confederate and State militia Commanders in response to immediate threats in the form of Union raids". Dr. Leonard Haynes, an African-American professor at Southern University, stated, "When you eliminate the black Confederate soldier, you've eliminated the history of the South."

As the war came to an end, the Confederacy took progressive measures to build back up its army. The creation of the Confederate States Colored Troops, copied after the segregated northern colored troops, came too late to be successful. Had the Confederacy been successful, it would have created the world's largest armies (at the time) consisting of black soldiers,even larger than that of the North. This would have given the future of the Confederacy a vastly different appearance than what modern day racist or anti-Confederate liberals conjecture. Not only did Jefferson Davis envision black Confederate veterans receiving bounty lands for their service, there would have been no future for slavery after the goal of 300,000 armed black CSA veterans came home after the war.

1. The "Richmond Howitzers" were partially manned by black militiamen. They saw action at 1st Manassas (or 1st Battle of Bull Run) where they operated battery no. 2. In addition two black "regiments", one free and one slave, participated in the battle on behalf of the South. "Many colored people were killed in the action", recorded John Parker, a former slave.

2. At least one Black Confederate was a non-commissioned officer. James Washington, Co. D 35th Texas Cavalry, Confederate States Army, became it's 3rd Sergeant. Higher ranking black commissioned officers served in militia units, but this was on the State militia level (Louisiana)and not in the regular C.S. Army.

3. Free black musicians, cooks, soldiers and teamsters earned the same pay as white confederate privates. This was not the case in the Union army where blacks did not receive equal pay. At the Confederate Buffalo Forge in Rockbridge County, Virginia, skilled black workers "earned on average three times the wages of white Confederate soldiers and more than most Confederate army officers ($350- $600 a year).

4. Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission while observing Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson's occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862: "Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."

5. Frederick Douglas reported, "There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels."

6. Black and white militiamen returned heavy fire on Union troops at the Battle of Griswoldsville (near Macon, GA). Approximately 600 boys and elderly men were killed in this skirmish.

7. In 1864, President Jefferson Davis approved a plan that proposed the emancipation of slaves, in return for the official recognition of the Confederacy by Britain and France. France showed interest but Britain refused.

8. The Jackson Battalion included two companies of black soldiers. They saw combat at Petersburg under Col. Shipp. "My men acted with utmost promptness and goodwill...Allow me to state sir that they behaved in an extraordinary acceptable manner."

9. Recently the National Park Service, with a recent discovery, recognized that blacks were asked to help defend the city of Petersburg, Virginia and were offered their freedom if they did so. Regardless of their official classification, black Americans performed support functions that in today's army many would be classified as official military service. The successes of white Confederate troops in battle, could only have been achieved with the support these loyal black Southerners.

10. Confederate General John B. Gordon (Army of Northern Virginia) reported that all of his troops were in favor of Colored troops and that it's adoption would have "greatly encouraged the army". Gen. Lee was anxious to receive regiments of black soldiers. The Richmond Sentinel reported on 24 Mar 1864, "None will deny that our servants are more worthy of respect than the motley hordes which come against us." "Bad faith [to black Confederates] must be avoided as an indelible dishonor."

11. In March 1865, Judah P. Benjamin, Confederate Secretary Of State, promised freedom for blacks who served from the State of Virginia. Authority for this was finally received from the State of Virginia and on April 1st 1865, $100 bounties were offered to black soldiers. Benjamin exclaimed, "Let us say to every Negro who wants to go into the ranks, go and fight, and you are free Fight for your masters and you shall have your freedom." Confederate Officers were ordered to treat them humanely and protect them from "injustice and oppression".

12. A quota was set for 300,000 black soldiers for the Confederate States Colored Troops. 83% of Richmond's male slave population volunteered for duty. A special ball was held in Richmond to raise money for uniforms for these men. Before Richmond fell, black Confederates in gray uniforms drilled in the streets. Due to the war ending, it is believed only companies or squads of these troops ever saw any action. Many more black soldiers fought for the North, but that difference was simply a difference because the North instituted this progressive policy more sooner than the more conservative South. Black soldiers from both sides received discrimination from whites who opposed the concept .

13. Union General U.S. Grant in Feb 1865, ordered the capture of "all the Negro men before the enemy can put them in their ranks." Frederick Douglass warned Lincoln that unless slaves were guaranteed freedom (those in Union controlled areas were still slaves) and land bounties, "they would take up arms for the rebels".

14. On April 4, 1865 (Amelia County, VA), a Confederate supply train was exclusively manned and guarded by black Infantry. When attacked by Federal Cavalry, they stood their ground and fought off the charge, but on the second charge they were overwhelmed. These soldiers are believed to be from "Major Turner's" Confederate command.

15. A Black Confederate, George _____, when captured by Federals was bribed to desert to the other side. He defiantly spoke, "Sir, you want me to desert, and I ain't no deserter. Down South, deserters disgrace their families and I am never going to do that."

16. Former slave, Horace King, accumulated great wealth as a contractor to the Confederate Navy. He was also an expert engineer and became known as the "Bridge builder of the Confederacy." One of his bridges was burned in a Yankee raid. His home was pillaged by Union troops, as his wife pleaded for mercy.

17. As of Feb. 1865 1,150 black seamen served in the Confederate Navy. One of these was among the last Confederates to surrender, aboard the CSS Shenandoah, six months after the war ended. This surrender took place in England.

18. Nearly 180,000 Black Southerners, from Virginia alone, provided logistical support for the Confederate military. Many were highly skilled workers. These included a wide range of jobs: nurses, military engineers, teamsters, ordnance department workers, brakemen, firemen, harness makers, blacksmiths, wagonmakers, boatmen, mechanics, wheelwrights, etc. In the 1920'S Confederate pensions were finally allowed to some of those workers that were still living. Many thousands more served in other Confederate States.

19. During the early 1900's, many members of the United Confederate Veterans (UCV) advocated awarding former slaves rural acreage and a home. There was hope that justice could be given those slaves that were once promised "forty acres and a mule" but never received any. In the 1913 Confederate Veteran magazine published by the UCV, it was printed that this plan "If not Democratic, it is [the] Confederate" thing to do. There was much gratitude toward former slaves, which "thousands were loyal, to the last degree", now living with total poverty of the big cities. Unfortunately, their proposal fell on deaf ears on Capitol Hill.

20. During the 50th Anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1913, arrangements were made for a joint reunion of Union and Confederate veterans. The commission in charge of the event made sure they had enough accommodations for the black Union veterans, but were completely surprised when unexpected black Confederates arrived. The white Confederates immediately welcomed their old comrades, gave them one of their tents, and "saw to their every need". Nearly every Confederate reunion including those blacks that served with them, wearing the gray.

21. The first military monument in the US Capitol that honors an African-American soldier is the Confederate monument at Arlington National cemetery. The monument was designed 1914 by Moses Ezekiel, a Jewish Confederate. Who wanted to correctly portray the "racial makeup" in the Confederate Army. A black Confederate soldier is depicted marching in step with white Confederate soldiers. Also shown is one "white soldier giving his child to a black woman for protection".- source: Edward Smith, African American professor at the American University, Washington DC.

22. Black Confederate heritage is beginning to receive the attention it deserves. For instance, Terri Williams, a black journalist for the Suffolk "Virginia Pilot" newspaper, writes: "I've had to re-examine my feelings toward the [Confederate] flag started when I read a newspaper article about an elderly black man whose ancestor worked with the Confederate forces. The man spoke with pride about his family member's contribution to the cause, was photographed with the [Confederate] flag draped over his lap that's why I now have no definite stand on just what the flag symbolizes, because it no longer is their history, or my history, but our history."

Resources:

Charles Kelly Barrow, et.al. Forgotten Confederates: An Anthology About Black Southerners (1995). Currently the best book on the subject.

Ervin L. Jordan, Jr. Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia (1995). Well researched and very good source of information on Black Confederates, but has a strong Union bias.

Richard Rollins. Black Southerners in Gray (1994). Excellent source.

Dr. Edward Smith and Nelson Winbush, "Black Southern Heritage". An excellent educational video. Mr. Winbush is a descendent of a Black Confederate and a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV).

This fact page is not an all inclusive list of Black Confederates, only a small sampling of accounts. For general historical information on Black Confederates, contact Dr. Edward Smith, American University, 4400 Massachusetts Ave., N.W., Washington, DC 20016; Dean of American Studies. Dr. Smith is a black professor dedicated to clarifying the historical role of African Americans.
http://www.37thtexas.org/html/BlkHist.html
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:31   #160
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actually, even all of the southern slaves weren't freed, since Lincoln made an exception for the loyal southern and border areas. The EP allows them to carve out specific areas where slaves were to be freed and it ONLY included areas in rebellion, not loyal areas.
This very true, Bren.

'Border states' Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Missouri were allowed to keep slavery as long as they did not officially secede from the US and join the Confederacy.

Some occupied areas under Union control in Virginia could keep their slaves also.

And then you had New Jersey a state who had 88,000 soldiers fighting for the Union to invade the South while they still had slavery at home until after the war was over. NJ didn't give up their slaves until they were forced to by the 13th Amendment.

6.000 New Jersey soldiers were killed in the Civil War.

Were they fighting to free the slaves in the South?

Did they know that their own state still had slaves?
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Old 06-24-2010, 14:49   #161
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This very true, Bren.

'Border states' Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Missouri were allowed to keep slavery as long as they did not officially secede from the US and join the Confederacy.

Some occupied areas under Union control in Virginia could keep their slaves also.
Also, parts of Louisiana, around NOLA.
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Old 06-24-2010, 15:07   #162
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Actually, who gives a ****?

I wish you dumbass yankees and dumbass hillbillies would forget about the past and look toward the future.

We are facing an enemy who does not care one bit on which side of the Mason-Dixon Line we live.

They just are counting on us not getting along.
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Old 06-24-2010, 22:49   #163
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Bren,

A thousand thanks for your post concerning the forgotten men in gray. You mentioned Nelson Winbush. I have had the very distinct pleasure of meeting him on several occasions. I have had the honor to have held to my breast and have kissed the Southern Cross that was draped over his grandfather's casket.* Once, as he was gathering up his display, a small fragment of thread fell from his grandfather's old gray kepi. (pronounced kay-pee) That tiny piece of thread is amongst my most prized possessions.
Mr. Winbush's grandfather you see was a slave and a black Confederate soldier. He attended 39 Confederate reunions and asked to be buried with his reunion medals. All but about four medals, which could not be found at the time of the funeral, were interred with him. I have held these encased medals in my hands.

* Each time I see the old "Southern Cross" (when it is properly and rightfully displayed) I salute it, nod to it, or when possible, I press it to my breast and kiss it in memory of those who fought for it and fell beside it. It is my flag.

Mushinto,

I "gives a =====! " The blood of my ancestors was poured out for that flag, and I will not forget them! They died that this nation. So concieved in liberty. Of, by, and for the people, that it would not perish from the earth. Sadly that dream was defeated. That nation did perish from the earth. But their flag. My flag. Still waves for the same reason and for the same freedoms. DEO VINDICE!!

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Old 06-25-2010, 07:37   #164
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My flag has 50 stars.
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Old 06-25-2010, 08:07   #165
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Something happened since then to change the idea of what the flag stands for.
You pose an interesting question, maybe it is based upon the perceived views of those who fly the flag. Has the display of the Confederate Flag increased or decreased and what are the motivations of those who fly it? It has to be one of the most beautiful flags ever designed.
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Old 06-25-2010, 09:38   #166
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It has to be one of the most beautiful flags ever designed.
Agreed.

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Old 06-25-2010, 10:07   #167
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It is my guess that ignorance is the reason that many people do not like the Confederate flag. Most of the people who hate this flag don't even know that it is the Confederate Naval Jack flag. It was displayed by Confederate ships.

The Confederate battle flag carried by soldiers on land was square not rectangular.

As it has been said... not a single slave ever came to the US from Africa on a ship flying the Confederate flag. They came on US ships flying the US flag and also they came on European ships.

Also as already noted here...

The US had slavery for 90 years.

If you go back to when we were British colonies, we had slavery here for over 200 years.

The Confederacy only had slavery for 4 years.

Most of the people who have issues with the Confederate flag need a history lesson.

By the way here is the Confederate flag...No one seems offended by this flag.

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Old 06-26-2010, 15:41   #168
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Actually, who gives a ****?

I wish you dumbass yankees and dumbass hillbillies would forget about the past and look toward the future.

We are facing an enemy who does not care one bit on which side of the Mason-Dixon Line we live.

They just are counting on us not getting along.
From a southern standpoint, it's hard to imagine an enemy more dangerous to us than the yankee in the white house, than and now.
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Old 06-26-2010, 16:09   #169
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From a southern standpoint, it's hard to imagine an enemy more dangerous to us than the yankee in the white house, than and now.
Yankee? Yankee?

What? Is he from NORTH KENYA or something?

Even if he had been born in, say Hawaii, He would not be a Yankee.

Bill Clinton lives in NYC, but he is NOT A YANKEE.

He's one of yourn.



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Old 06-26-2010, 16:29   #170
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Don't point your fingers at the north as the cause of America's problems. L. B Johnson was not a Yankee, nor is Jimmy Carter or Al Gore. But all three are vets does that mean you want to slam the American legion?.
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Old 07-08-2010, 15:21   #171
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As to the beauty of the "Southern Cross", -square or rectangular- as Jack Nicholson (as "The Joker") said in the original Tim Burton "Batman" movie... "I don't know if its art, but I like it!"

If you ever see rectangular Southern cross with no star in the center, it is either General Jackson's or General Forrest's flag. Both flags were produced before Kentucky was counted amongst the Southern Confederacy.

The flag's crossed bars is a St. Andrew's cross. St. Andrew, Christ's 1st disciple, considered himself unworthy to be crucified in the manner as his saviour and convinced his executioners to tie him to the X upside down though he was in his late 80's. He survived for three days witnessing to passerby in unimaginable agony. Finally, he was ordered cut down but he had died shortly before he was released. Funny how a symbol that honors a Christian and a Jew is supposedly a "racist" or anti Jewish image.

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Old 07-08-2010, 15:46   #172
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There is a word for "Southerners" like LBJ, Carter, Gore, Clinton, Andrew Johnson, Sam Houston, et al.

The term is "Scalawag" and scalawags are held in lower contempt by patriotic Southerners than Yankees.

If thats possible.

Its another word for traitor or turncoat.

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Old 07-10-2010, 15:16   #173
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"The South is scceeding from the North because the two are not homogeneous. They have different instincts, different appetites, different morals, and a different culture."

Anthony Trollope, a British citizen who traveled in the North and South during the early part of the war.

"Governor, if I had forseen the use those people designed to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Court house; no sir, not by me. Had I forseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in this right hand!"

General Robert E. Lee in a private conversation with Governor Stockdale of Texas.
August, 1870.

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Old 07-11-2010, 16:51   #174
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As a former enlisted man, Lee's willingness to waste the lives of thousands more southern men in futile gestures makes me cringe. But I am not fit to judge a 19th Century aristocrat.

It is ironic that when Lee surrendered, the very strong President of the United States on March 4, 1865 had already announced his postwar policy:
“With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan--to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations.“

Lincoln was murdered soon after the end of the war and weaker men were left to direct the reconstruction. I suspect the post war period would have been much better for the confederacy if Lincoln remained president.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:09   #175
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Now that we've heard from the pagan left, I guess this thread is complete.

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Well, you got the pagan part right anyway...
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