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Old 05-07-2010, 07:28   #126
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Damn I'm gonna be late to work again b/c of GT
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:50   #127
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I'm not a big believer in the sanctity of flags but if I have an issue with any of the CSA flags it is this. When I was first stationed in the South in the early '80s people tended to fly their different CSA flags and standards in remembrance of their heritage and what they saw as a simpler time. It wasn't a political statement and it wasn't an anger statement.

Fast forward 20 years and all that had changed. Because of feelings of impotency over legislators changing the various State standards and flags, public perception of the CSA flags, the changing power dynamics in the cities, and what many felt was a degrading of the importance of their culture it has become a symbol of protest.

Mind you this is what I perceived and you may disagree. Also there became this stupid justification of the CSA flags being OK because slavery didn't really play a part in the war...
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:10   #128
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The American Civil War was fought over taxes and representation in Congress. It wasn't R vs D it was Slave States vs Non Slave States ...... like the Masonic Party and the Anti-Masonic party ( talk about opening a can of worms if you really looked at that one). It was about change but as we have learned in lately Not all change is good.


And down through out history there have been slaves. Read the bible 99% of the time the Jews were someone's slave. You don't see them *****ing about Rome and Egypt for enslaving their people.
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:22   #129
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Speaking of confederate flag ignorance, I think the Georgia legislature drove that home better than I could. People complained about this:The Furball Forum

So they made it this:
The Furball Forum
Basically just saying, "we think you're too dumb to get this." They were right.



For you yankees, the new Georgia flag is the entire 1861-1863 national flag of of the CSA, with a state seal added in the middle of the stars.
A guy was attacking me and my state as being racist for liking the Georgia State Flag with the Confederate Battle Flag on it. He was glad it was changed to the present flag. I informed him the new flag he liked was the the real Confederate Flag known as the First National, and the Confederate Battle Flag he hated was never a flag adopted by the Confederacy. I also informed him of his lack of historic info., and suggested he should go back to school before he attacks or praises something of which he knew nothing about. I believe historical ignorance perpetuated by racial groups is the problem with most of the people attacking the Battle Flag.
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:26   #130
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I think marksiwel was closest to the answer with this...

"The problem with the symbol isnt that normal healthy minded people use it, the problem is that its used for all the wrong things"

Bad people have given the flag a bad name, and has tarnished it for use by those who would use it in display of their Southern pride/heritage.
Same thing has happened to the Gadsden Flag ("Don't Tread On Me").
It's now just another teabagger prop that has the same current meaning as the Confederate Flag. Angry, mostly old, white people wishing things were "like they used to be". Sorry if you don't believe that, but it's the real answer to the OP's question.

There may be genuine southern pride by those who fly it in southern states, but in Northern California it almost always means "I'm a stupid redneck who hates N---ers and Sp--cs". You wouldn't want to just walk up and knock on the door of the homes who fly that flag. It's generally seen as a 'Keep Out' sign. Fine by me--thanks for the warning.

As pointed out in this thread, the Stars & Stripes has also been used at times as a symbol of oppression and tyranny since the beginning. Don't get hung up on flags, gods, or political parties. They never stay the same.
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:27   #131
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Swiper, I was not trying to use New Orleans as a reason for loving that flag. New Orleans just popped to mind. The percentile proportion was maintained all over the south. The CSA flag haters just conveniently forget that bit of information. I know a lot of smart asses and white supremacy advocates use it and the blacks hate it and don't even know why. If people would just check their history a little closer, and not get all their information from someone with an axe to grind, they would find that nothing is as bad, or as good, as it seems.


Years ago Sky Harbor airport, in Phoenix, spent brazillions of dollars re-decorating the airport in a southwest and indian motif. They used a bunch of ancient Navajo religious symbols around the buildings.

One of the black extremists told them that if you backed off a quarter mile, stood on your head, and closed one eye, those could almost be construed as swastikas.

Bottom line was Sky harbor, instead of telling the guy to jump real high and kick his own ass, mutilated the symbols to the point that no one has anything.
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:34   #132
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Indian symbol not Japanese.
Yep Indian, my uncle was in the 45th Division in WWII and their original arm patch was a swastika and it was changed to the Thunderbird.

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Old 05-07-2010, 08:59   #133
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"Because of the continued, creeping monopolization...

You are wasting you time. The north won the war. The north wrote the history books. The truth is irrelevant.
Same old BS line... "The winners write the history so it is never true".
The allies won WW2, I suppose that history is a lie too. Hitler was really a great guy who wanted to save the world. The Japanese were merely trying to defend themselves from the colonial powers, etc.
Okay professor, enlighten us on the "truth".

There are no lies and coverups and Northern conspiracies. The real truth has been availible for years. Deal with it.

The truth is the Confederate states turned their back on the Constitution.
The Confederate battle flag was flown against only one flag in battle. The Stars and Stripes, that is my main issue with the CSA.
Southern folk are good folk, good culture... but to turn on the unity that defines this country, I have contempt.
If there was a permanant split in the nation, we would be 2 second rate nations and probably squabbling like the Koreas. And very possibly the world would be a different place, either nazi paradise or communist heaven. Because the power of the USA was a decisive factor in WW2 and the following years.
What needs to happen is this petty BS be trashed and deal with the socialist libs that have hijacked this nation. November is coming. and so is 2012.
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:43   #134
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Same old BS line... "The winners write the history so it is never true".
... and the 'winners write the history' claim isn't true unless the losers were completely annihilated and wiped out of memory. Take a look at the history anout WW2 taught in Japanese schools. It's has a somewhat different angle on historical events of that time period.

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Old 05-07-2010, 09:46   #135
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Originally Posted by Hipneckonwheels View Post
Same thing has happened to the Gadsden Flag ("Don't Tread On Me").
It's now just another teabagger prop that has the same current meaning as the Confederate Flag. Angry, mostly old, white people wishing things were "like they used to be". Sorry if you don't believe that, but it's the real answer to the OP's question.
Read democrat talking points much?
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:48   #136
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Yep Indian, my uncle was in the 45th Division in WWII and their original arm patch was a swastika and it was changed to the Thunderbird.
The Finnish Air Force used to have a swastika (rotating opposite direction of the German swastika) on the roundel of their air planes (predating the raise of Nazisms in Germany) but it was changed after 1945. However a swastika can still be seen on the Finnish presidential flag


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Old 05-07-2010, 09:49   #137
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Same old BS line... "The winners write the history so it is never true".
The allies won WW2, I suppose that history is a lie too.
Lie? Maybe not, but it is biased. Things sometimes get left out, things sometimes get exaggerated, details get "classified," stories get simplified, and things get told from a certain perspective.

It's not that the history books written by winners are never true, it's that they're never the whole story.
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... and the 'winners write the history' claim isn't true unless the losers were completely annihilated and wiped out of memory. Take a look at the history anout WW2 taught in Japanese schools. It's has a somewhat different angle on historical events of that time period.
Which just goes to show what we're saying. The Japanese tell a different story about WWII, as you've said, so naturally any of us reading a Japanese history book dealing with the 1920's, 1930's, and 1940's, would probably read it with a grain of salt, right? Same as with German history covering that period, because it just makes sense to do. We'd probably try to fact-check what we found, we'd read history books written by Americans, the English, the French, maybe even the Russians...we'd compare what we found in the Japanese books with what we found elsewhere.

If you were to read about the causes of World War II, you'd get different reasons for all that bloodshed, depending on if you were reading something by a Japanese, Chinese, English, American, French, German, etc, etc, historian.

So why is it when Americans read about the Civil War, they only want to listen to what the winners -- the Federal government -- tells us is what happened, and why it happened at all?
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Old 05-08-2010, 10:04   #138
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Murderers, Rapists, thieves, and arsonists. I hope every man that fought in Lincoln's army is roasting in Hell tonight.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:13   #139
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I agree 100%!

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Because some people really really hate white people.


People hate the white people. And are RACEST!

That works for them so I shall use it now!
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Old 05-08-2010, 12:35   #140
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... It's now just another teabagger prop ... Don't get hung up on flags, gods, or political parties. They never stay the same.
Change is the only constant. And a good Glock.
Now that we've heard from the pagan left, I guess this thread is complete.

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Old 05-29-2010, 17:41   #141
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Swiper, et al,

The Northern slave owners sold their slaves to the South in most cases. Slaves were extremely valuable and cost about the price of a new car or a good used car today. Another thing thats left out of the mix is that slaves and slavery existed for survival. They, and the so called "evil" of slavery kept the country and the world fed and clothed for many decades. The slaves themselves were generally well treated regardless of over 150 years of lies to the contrary. The question was about how slavery was to end, not about the issue itself. The radicals wanted slaves to be dumped on the world with no education and no preperation for living on their own. All this with no remuneration to the owners who had to take it on the chin. Forget how their famlies were to be fed, clothed, housed, slave-freedmen-white. Sorry Charley. Slavery has to end regardless of the ramifacations! (Worked out real good didn't it ?) Over 700,000 dead in the war alone, well over 50,000 civilian Southern civilians murdered, starved, or dead by pestilience. Countless thousands more maimed for life. Black/White relations poisoned for nearly two centuries. Countless war crimes committed against the Southern populace by the so called "liberators" many of these fresh off the boat from Europe. These were the cream of the Northern juggernaught that raped and pilliaged like Huns across the defenseless South. The black women were ravaged, raped, and beaten first. Then came the white women, girls, and defenseless old. Funny how the "down trodden darkies" not only didn't flock to the Northern armies, but defended (sometimes to the death) their "white folks". Who do you think was home tending the fires, getting in the crops, and caring for the homefront? It wasn't Santa Claus! (Or kindly "Honest Abe")

Yes folks. Let's think about that one point above for a moment. Thousands of foregin born troops marshaled against the populace of the South. We make a God out of the man who has the blood of countless tens of thousands on his hands and the man who clapped his hands and laughed when he heard the news of Sherman's war crimes.

In the words of an old poem, found in a old Confederate's Bible...
"The Unreconstructed Rebel", it reads in part.

"I hates the striped banner, tis dripping with our blood!
I hates the "Glorious Union" I fought it all I could!

Three hundred thousand Yankees is stiff in Southern dust;
We got three hundred thousand before they conquered us!

They died of Southern fever and Southern steel and shot-
I wish it was three million instead of what we got!

And I don't want no pardon, for Reb I was and am!
I won't be reconstructed, and I don't care a damn!"

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Old 05-29-2010, 20:04   #142
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Blast,

The CSA did nothing of the sort. (Concerning turning their backs on the Constitution) Read the the CSA's constitution some time if you doubt me. It copies the US Constution and even improves upon it! Dear old "Honest Abe" trashed the Consitution and denied Constitutional rights to his own people and all of the sceeding southern states. Thousands were imprisoned without trial. Dozens of newspapers were run out of business or destroyed by Union troops. Thousands of citizens' homes north and south were comandeered by the "Glorious Union" against the clear constitutional law against it! The Maryland state government was imprisoned and threatened with execution by Union forces that forced southern anti Lincoln voters away from the ballot boxes at bayonet point. And I have seen the Confederacy compared to the Nazis?? Thousands of innocents were murdered in cold blood by the Union army and WE turned our backs on the Constitution?
The state of West Virginia was allowed against constutional law to form their own state out of sceeding north western counties that had their ballot boxes tampered with and often destroyed by "loyal" Virginians. War crimes that rival the Nazis and Communists were committed against an innocent and defenseless Southern public, and went not only unpunished (at least on this side of the infernal regons) but are lauded and appaulded to this day. Foreign born troops in Union Blue raped and pilliaged the south like the Huns of old! And WE "turned our backs on the Constitution"???!!!!

I could go on and on but who would listen? The South fought and died for the Constutional republic that was founded and handed down to us by our forefathers. The government "of the people, by the people, and for the people" DID perish from the earth. The Southern Confederacy left the "Glorious Union" because it had a right to! The Constitution was then and is now a worthless piece of paper. The South was the one that wanted a Constutional republic with limited government, and low taxes. It wasn't us who created the income tax and a host of other government intrusions that multiplied tens thousands fold since the destruction of the Confederacy. The founding fathers would turn over in their graves if they could see what the Yankee boot-heel did to the rights they bestowed on this nation. The Southern Confederacy wanted no part of it and was cruelly and unconstitutionally invaded and destroyed for their temerity when they peacefully scceeded from the Northern states. All we asked for was to be left to go in peace! We depended on slavery at that time for our very lives. It was the only thing that worked and it worked for centuries. Millions were fed, housed, clothed, and cared for (including the slaves themselves) by the "evil" instution of slavery. Consider where the slaves came from, who sold them, and the frightfull conditions the masses lived under and do so to this day in their native land! The instution was dying and could have been easily fazed out of existance as is was all over the world at that time. Only in the U.S. and in Hati was is "ended" by war. (Worked out pretty good for both countries and for blacks in general now didn't it? Blacks traded one set of chains for another!)

You are correct. The truth is there. Hell is being paid tonight for the crimes committed against this nation and against the Southern Confederacy. We can't go back. We can't do it over. But we can at least see that the record is set straight.
History is history is history. Forget it and you will re-live it! America as it was formed by the founders in 1776, died in 1865, and it had nothing to do with ending slavery.
Slavery was just the excuse to commit the crime.

When I see that blood soaked old Southern Cross (The Confederate Battle flag. Still the 2nd most popular and most purchased flag in this nation only slightly behind "Old Glory") I salute it. I nod to it. Or, if possible, I clasp it to my breast and kiss it in memory of those who died defending it and the blood that that has laved it for over one hundred and fifty years.

God bless the South!
Deo Vindice!
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Old 05-30-2010, 08:00   #143
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"Slavery was just the excuse to commit the crime."

Results, not theory:

The cure resulting from the "crime" lead to the establishment of the greatest nation in the world. A nation which has evolved into one seeking even greater justice for its citizens.

There are folks on this board from the south who can still remember when the feds arranged for them to have electricity. It did not come from their own southern state government but from Roosevelt's DC centered programs. Another case of "Damned yankees interfering in the states right to keep rural folks in their place!"

In the long term it seems that the "crime" was a real benefit for the south for which we should be eternally thankful.
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Old 05-30-2010, 16:32   #144
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Ever wonder why some states, Mississippi for instance, was the richest state in the Confederacy and the poorest state in the Union since the war?? The southern states were made to pay war reparations that robbed us of our much needed natural wealth. Some of the debt took over a century to repay. Our "friend" Uncle Sam forgave billions upon billions of tax funded war reparations of Germany and Spain and Japan and Russia whilst making the Confederacy repay to the last penny. The south took over a century to recover from both the war and "reconstruction" read that DE-construction. That sir isn't a "Theory". On the other hand what you propose and suggest is.

Many countries have been sceeded from. It didn't end the world or destroy the country. Both nations may have become one. There could have been two powerfull countries here now. We will never know. Just because a socialist president and would be dictator spent billions, prolonged the great depression for years, and improved Lincoln's government control over the US population beyond his wildest imagininings doesn't "feed the bulldog" or raise up the multiplied tens of thousands that were murdered, starved, or killed in battle. I say again. And the truth is undeniable. The Confederate States of America fought bled and died to preserve the Constitution and was the only country ever completely destroyed by the federal government. And it was destroyed precisely for that reason. (Why do you think not one southern leader was ever tried for treason, even though Jefferson Davis plead to be tried for it?) Not to end slavery. Lincoln's own words prove it. Had he lived and not been murdered by his own people, he would have shipped all blacks out of the country. Its not a "theory" and the results are undeniable and provable to anyone who wants to see them. If the endning of slavery was the war's only aim, why weren't General Grant's and other Northerners' slaves freed till 1865 and by an act of congress?? Lincoln wanted the slaves to revolt and murder those helpless ones on the Confederate homefront. Didn't happen. If it weren't for the blacks the Confederacy would have folded in the first month. Note this didn't happen in Hati or the Caribbean nations where REAL slavery existed. There, slaves were worked and beaten to death! There was always more sugar cane to make more rum to trade to the African kings for more slaves. But the pall of slavery always falls on the Confederacy. The South is the "evil" slave people. We lived to beat, rape, and bedevil our blacks. Funny how so many stayed with their families and defended the Southern nation. Enough so to keep the South in the war against the most powerfull and ruthless nation in the world at that time. And enough so that we nearly won that war, unaided and unprepared for that war as we were. That sir, is no "theory".

Deo Vindice!

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Old 05-30-2010, 16:34   #145
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Old 05-30-2010, 17:16   #146
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Glen129,

God bless for showing the 1st National flag and the Bonnie Blue flag. The Georgia legislature did EXACTLY that! I was angry with their caving to the left about the Southern Cross being taken down but they kicked the ignorant (the former Georgia flag's enemies) straight in the teeth with the 1st national flag and its 13 stars.
I sport a 1st National and a Bonnie Blue on my car, as well as a bumper sticker that reads "Don't blame us! You had your chance in 1861!" with a 1st national flag on the sticker too. I have had people honk their horns and wave, and some have even walked over for a closer look as it says "First National flag of the Confederacy" in tiny lettering under the flag.
The Confederacy's armies may have been defeated but the spirit lives on. The ashes are still warm.

Deo Vindice!

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Old 06-10-2010, 12:56   #147
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Hey Gray Rider,

Bet you $100 you wouldn't go into a black church in Atlanta and talk your smack about what a humane institution slavery was and how well slaves were treated! Tell them how lucky they were!

If the slaves in the old south were so happy and content how could Nat Turner have ever started a revolt?

This is all a bunch of hogwash.... The instution of chattel slavery was brutal. Anyone who spouts high minded ideals of freedom and rights in one breath yet defends a government that ENSHRINED IN ITS CONSTITUTION the brutal oppression of another man PURELY for the economic gain of his master just kind of strike me as preposterous.

The Constitution of the Confederacy that supposedly was so concerned about states rights actually made it impossible for its own states to decide the issue of slavery for themselves! So Mississippi couldn't decide at some point in time in the future to outlaw slavery if it wanted to!?! So much for states rights...

How proud you must be of a culture that brutally enslaved 4 million human beings and fought to the bitter end to preserve it! How proud you must be of a government that made slavery the "Cornerstone" of its Constitution! Your argument that slavery was on its way out in the south is bogus. By 1861 Virginia's #1 export commodity was SLAVES! That is why it was so vitally important for the rich land/slave owners in the south to perpetuate the institution as the country grew westward! They needed a way to keep up the value of their "property"--indeed a strange word for another human being by someone who feigns disenchantment over how far the nation had strayed from the ideas of the Founding Fathers--yeah, such simple notions like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! I guess that only applied to "certain" kinds of people....

Again, bet you $100 you wouldn't go into a black church in Atlanta and spew this crap!
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Old 06-10-2010, 13:23   #148
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Same old BS line... "The winners write the history so it is never true".
The allies won WW2, I suppose that history is a lie too.
Yes, it is a lie. That doesn't make Hitler a good guy or us bad guys, but you'd have to be an idiot to think that the history of WW II or any other war hasn't been distorted to favor the winners, especially as taught in their own country.
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Old 06-10-2010, 13:27   #149
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You can not compare the total national (north and south) percentage of white slave owners with the percentage of black slave owners in New Orleans. It would be statistically dishonest to do so.
Actually, no - saying that one area far exceeded the national average (of anything) is a proper and common use of statistics. In fact, comparing a small area sample to a total population is exactly why it is fair to use a percentage and not raw numbers.

Conicidentally, Lincoln didn't free the slaves in New Orleans in the Emancipation Proclamation, either.
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Old 06-13-2010, 19:33   #150
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Nice to see you again Big Bird.

Seems Nat Turner's slave revolt that involved the murder of dozens of innocent whites kind of fizzled out for lack of a following amongst the slave populace. Same with your proable "hero" John Brown. Another cold blooded murderer of his own people. Same thing happened (yet again) with dear old "honest" Abe and the emancipation proclamation. It was penned to forment a slave revolt behind Confederate lines. Funny how each time the stakes were raised there was NO general uprising. Over 150 years of out and out lies and the sad mistake of blacks to believe the same lies over and over and over since the "40 acres and a mule" doozie doesn't change the facts. Black slaves (were on the whole) treated better here than at any time in history or on any other contenient on the face of the earth including their beloved Africa. Slavery exists there on a grand scale to this day and goes back into the sands of time for centuries. And our "friends" the Moors (whose religion blacks flock to due to a 'hatred' of the white man's religion") were the very people who were the go betweens between said African kings (who enslaved their own people more savagely than can commonly be imagined) and the "evil" white Yankee slavers who brought the poor wretches to the new world for rum and trinkets. Yes. If any black wants to go back to "Merry Old Africa" and live he is welcome to do so. Your big buddy "Honest Abe" had plans in the works to ship all blacks out of the country back to Africa or anywhere they chose to go. Hundreds were shipped back of their own free will and were starved and run off by their own people. Read something other than fiction once in a while.

The Indians took and kept slaves. White, black, "hispanic" and other Indians.

No reproach:

The Spanish enslaved and worked whole Indian cultures into the ground for centuries.

No reproach:

The English enslaved thousands of Irish and Scots and worked orphan children to death by the thousands in their work houses; "Oliver Twist" was based on real happenings remember, but the working class English were so broken hearted over a piece of fiction, "Uncle Tom's Cabin" that they kept the Crown from entering into the WSI.

Tens of thousands of Chinese were worked to death and tens of thousands more innocent women and girls were sold into sexual slavery by their own and our own people.

No reproach:

This country, after its independence, was a slave holding country for 98 years before the WSI.

No reproach:

Brazil kept slavery for twenty years after the WSI ended and then ended it peacefully with the above mentioned malmutation. (The rembursment of the cost of the slaves to the owners by public funds.

No reproach:

Federal soldiers raped the black women first and pilliaged the slave's hovel with the same lust and depravity they raped the white southern women and the manor born.

No reproach:

The US government treated blacks like 2nd class citizens for decades after the WSI, well past WWII and Korea, and poisioned race relations in the South that continues to this day. Their lackies in the media have the blood of tens of thousands black and white on their hands.

No reproach:

The Southern states were ending slavery through peacefull malmutation. The freeing of slaves after their owner's death and by other means that would not leave their owners destitute. Remember. This was at the beginning of the industrial revolution. Slave labor fed and clothed the WORLD for centuries. It was the only thing that worked here in the colonies. They weren't kept for raping and to have someone to whip on despite almost two centuries of Northern lies to the contary. Slaves cost the amount of a new car today, and were crucial to the survival of the nation. Rabid aboltionists wanted them all set free with no education or any preparedness whatsoever for the real world. They got their way. Worked out pretty good didn't it?

The war wasn't about the ending of slavery. That was happening peacefully for decades before WSI. Like it or not it was soon to become cost prohibitive. The war was brought on by the same measures that we fought our first war for independence for. Taxation without representiation.

Lincoln and the congress passed the Morrill Tariff, (the highest import tax in history) that raised the import tax rate from 20% to 40 %! The southern cotton industry was devastated. The South had only 30% of the population but paid 80% of the tariffs collected. The Southerers seceeded to escape this punitive tax and Lincoln invaded to re-secure said tax to slake the demands of his Northern industrailist supporters.
The only way to recoup this punishing tax was to invade the Southern Confederacy and drive it back into the Union at bayonet point. It cost the country over 700,000 dead and hundreds of millions of 1860's dollars. It involved massive unpunished (this side of the grave) war crimes and the wanton destruction of an area the size of a 180 mile swath of desolation from New York City to Chicago. Don't preach to me about the plight of the Southern slaves Big Bird. Don't forget the massive desertions in the Union Army when Lincoln "freed" all the Southern slaves while leaving all in Northern and overran Southern states still in their chains. Lincoln was no friend of the slaves. I have said before and I will say again. Slavery was the South's achellie's heel and is the probagation of one of the the biggest lies in the history of mankind. That being. "The "Civil War" was fought to free the slaves!" Funny how there were slave owners on each side and U.S.Grant kept his wife's slaves till December of 1865. Robert E. Lee freed all the slaves that were left to him in (if memory serves) his wife's father's will, well before the war.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!

The slaves didn't revolt. Their sacrifices free and slave kept the Confederacy in the fight whether you wish to accept that fact or not. Look up John Jaspar sometime. Or Bill Yopp. "Ten cent Bill" as he was known. Yopp, a former slave and Confederate soldier, collected dimes from passerby (when dimes had the same buying power as dollars today) and bought gifts, cakes, food, and personal items to his former Confederate soldier (and former master) then pennyless and living in the Old Confederates' home in the late 1800s.

No one goes to the "Black churches in Atlanta" (or any other black church) and preaches anything concerning the war but sedition and hatred. Black men have become disposable in the modern urban community. Black women demand scarce more than fertilization from the average black male, which only serves to produce more black voters for white politicians that promise more and more of the 40 acres and a mule fiasco that has worked so well for so many decades.

And you think slavery was ended!!?? One set of chains was exchanged for another!!

Last edited by Gray_Rider; 06-13-2010 at 19:56.. Reason: spelling error
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42