[marksiwel]

Originally Posted by Berto

So Marksiwel, do you hate the American flag too?

No more than I hate the CSA Flag.
I dont hate it, its just doesnt mean what I used to mean. SO I dont use it.
I used to have a shirt with the CSA flag on it. Stopped wearing it.

[Natty]

Surprise...

Famous Union Generals Grant and Sherman were slave owners.

[Berto]

Originally Posted by marksiwel

No more than I hate the CSA Flag.
I dont hate it, its just doesnt mean what I used to mean. SO I dont use it.
I used to have a shirt with the CSA flag on it. Stopped wearing it.

That's an interesting answer.
I don't tend to let others determine what a flag's meaning should be. I think for myself.
I have no problem with the Confederate Flag, and I'm from the PNW.

[marksiwel]

Originally Posted by syntaxerrorsix

Slavery was not what the war was fought over or about.

There is absolutely no way I can un-teach what years of public education has drilled into you. I won't even try.

CSA Constitution

4. No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

and
3. The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.
Oh look they wanted to expand slavery into new "States"

Sorry but there is no way I can deprogram you from all the Nonsense you have learned.
States Rights as in, Slavery. You can dress it up anyway you want but its slavery

What other STATEs Rights were the CSA fighting for? How were they being repressed by the rest of the USA? ANYONE?

[syntaxerrorsix]

Originally Posted by marksiwel

CSA Constitution

4. No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

and
3. The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.
Oh look they wanted to expand slavery into new "States"

Sorry but there is no way I can deprogram you from all the Nonsense you have learned.
States Rights as in, Slavery. You can dress it up anyway you want but its slavery

What other STATEs Rights were the CSA fighting for? How were they being repressed by the rest of the USA? ANYONE?

We'll let that be your little secret.

[Mushinto]

When I first moved to Florida, I put a confederate flag license plate on the front of my car because I'd seen other people do it, it looked cool and I'd always seen myself as somewhat of a rebel.

A few months later, I was riding with a black officer and stopped by my house for something. He saw the car and went batsht. I never realized that the flag provoked such a reaction from some people.

I took it off. I didn't need anyone making assumptions about me based on a symbol that had no real meaning for me.

ML

[CLena88]

Mark, I'm not saying that the CSA didn't want to keep slavery, I'm just saying the North didn't really want to stop it either, at least, their intent going in wasn't to stop it.

[marksiwel]

Originally Posted by Berto

That's an interesting answer.
I don't tend to let others determine what a flag's meaning should be. I think for myself.
I have no problem with the Confederate Flag, and I'm from the PNW.

Thats it, I must be a mindless sheeple who cant think for himself.
So when you see the Swastika you dont think Nazi you think Eastern Symbol right ?

Why do you display symbols? To express an idea to others
The CSA flag as the public sees it now no longer represents the idea I wish to display.

[marksiwel]

Originally Posted by CLena88

Mark, I'm not saying that the CSA didn't want to keep slavery, I'm just saying the North didn't really want to stop it either, at least, their intent going in wasn't to stop it.

and we are in agreement.

Now why did the South leave? Other than slavery. In real terms not "The man was messing with them" why did they leave?

[glock_19guy1983]

Originally Posted by PillBox

This is probably the most ignorant post I have ever seen on GlockTalk. You should be ashamed of yourself.

PB

well he is somewhat right although it wasnt the csa bringing them over it was white and black people in general for 200 years prior to the war of northern aggression. If their ancestors hadnt been brought here they would be in africa starving and dying of aids right now. My ancestors came over here not as slaves but as subjects to a tyrant. Had they not come over i would probably be in Ulster Ireland. I would rather be here so i am thankfull. My 4xgreat grandfather was a captain in 3rd MS Cavalry 3rd regiment and was a slave owner. Was slavery right? No. Was it nessessary to the south's economy? Yes. It happened learn from it but leave it in the past where it belongs. My ancestor served under that flag and lost a son to yankees at Vicksburg. I fly and honor the Confederate flag its my way of honoring my family, my ancestors and my herritige

[ocjackel]

Originally Posted by syntaxerrorsix

Slavery was not what the war was fought over or about.

There is absolutely no way I can un-teach what years of public education has drilled into you. I won't even try.

Clearly the South was worried about losing slavery. As others have posted 3 of the first 5 amendments in CSA constitution deal with protecting the institution of slavery.

Heck, you could argue that they cared more about protecting slavery than protecting freedom of religion, press, due process, the right to bear arms, etc. All of these rights were enumerated in their constitution well after slavery was.

[Natty]

Originally Posted by marksiwel

CSA Constitution
Oh look they wanted to expand slavery into new "States"

Lincoln made West Virginia a new Union state during the war. And they were allowed to have slavery.

[1811guy]

Originally Posted by Bren

Speaking of confederate flag ignorance, I think the Georgia legislature drove that home better than I could. People complained about this:

So they made it this:

Basically just saying, "we think you're too dumb to get this." They were right.



For you yankees, the new Georgia flag is the entire 1861-1863 national flag of of the CSA, with a state seal added in the middle of the stars.

I love the fact that they added "In God We Trust" to it - getting two birds with one stone.

[marksiwel]

Originally Posted by glock_19guy1983

well he is somewhat right although it wasnt the csa bringing them over it was white people in general for 200 years prior to the war of northern aggression. If their ancestors hadnt been brought here they would be in africa starving and dying of aids right now. My ancestors came over here not as slaves but as subjects to a tyrant. Had they not come over i would probably be in Ulster Ireland. I would rather be here so i am thankfull. My 4xgreat grandfather was a captain in 3rd MS Cavalry 3rd regiment and was a slave owner. Was slavery right? No. Was it nessessary to the south's economy? Yes. It happened learn from it but leave it in the past where it belongs.

Would Africa be such a mess if we hadnt had the slave trade and the Europeans had colonized it?

[Berto]

Originally Posted by marksiwel

Thats it, I must be a mindless sheeple who cant think for himself.
So when you see the Swastika you dont think Nazi you think Eastern Symbol right ?

Why do you display symbols? To express an idea to others
The CSA flag as the public sees it now no longer represents the idea I wish to display.

Wrong. The CSA Flag as YOU see it no longer represents the idea YOU wish to display.
Welcome to the Pussification of Amercia.
Learn to respect other viewpoints, instead of wetting your bed over them.
At least you don't own a pit bull.

[CLena88]

Originally Posted by marksiwel

and we are in agreement.

Now why did the South leave? Other than slavery. In real terms not "The man was messing with them" why did they leave?

Multiple court decisions that were starting to limit slave trade and tightening the reigns on control of slave use and trade. Combined with the fact that many thought of Lincoln as an abolitionist during his election. The abolition of slavery would have devastated the economy of the south, whose agricultural base relied on slave labor.

[Natty]

Why didn't the Union states free their slaves before they invaded the South?

[JuneyBooney]

Originally Posted by speedsix

The Confederate flag is one of those symbols that has recently taken a more negative meaning. Not sure when it happened or why. I remember in the 1980s watching the Dukes of Hazard and nobody thought anything of the "General Lee" and how the roof was painted. There is no way a network show would glorify the Confederate symbol like that today.

In the 1980s, the Dukes of Hazard were seen as lovable rebels. They were the heros of the show. Something happened since then to change the idea of what the flag stands for.

I used to think the flag was kind of cool because I liked the rebel connotations. Now I sense that the flag is more a symbol of racism and ignorance for most people and that is why it has been met with more and more distaste.

I am from the northern Midwest so I don't have an inside view on the south like some of you guys. Not trying to start a flame war but why is the CSA flag seen in such a bad light by most people today? What changed in the past 20 years? I am curious because I can remember a time when it was not only seen as a symbol of hate.

It is not the Confederate Flag causinf the problems...it is the liberal wing and some loudmouth minorities trying to exert their dominance on society. When the race wars come it will be settled.

[CLena88]

Originally Posted by Natty

Why didn't the Union states free their slaves before they invaded the South?

Because they wanted slaves too, the union didn't fight to free slaves, they fought because they were too proud to let the CSA secede.

[syntaxerrorsix]

Originally Posted by ocjackel

Clearly the South was worried about losing slavery. As others have posted 3 of the first 5 amendments in CSA constitution deal with protecting the institution of slavery.

Heck, you could argue that they cared more about protecting slavery than protecting freedom of religion, press, due process, the right to bear arms, etc. All of these rights were enumerated in their constitution well after slavery was.

I never said it wasn't an issue I said it wasn't the de facto reason for the war. I really shouldn't have posted in the first place. I know how these threads end up. No persons opinion is going to change as most are to emotionally charged. I'll step back and let you folks have any opinion you care to have.

[marksiwel]

Originally Posted by Natty

Lincoln made West Virginia a new Union state during the war. And they were allowed to have slavery.

Well that had slaverly before when they were part of the Union, I believe that was part of their deal to become part of the Union. Also Lincoln needed all the Border states he could get during that time, look at what he did in Maryland to keep them in the Union and to protect the Capital.

Also the South wanted to expand further South into South America/central america

[Berto]

Originally Posted by JuneyBooney

It is not the Confederate Flag causinf the problems...it is the liberal wing and some loudmouth minorities trying to exert their dominance on society. When the race wars come it will be settled.

Yep. Helter Skelter.

[edrobert]

I find it amazing that so many can stand up and say that are proud patriots of the United States of America while at the same time flying the Confederate Flag which represents a time when the Southern States did not want to be part of the USA. I've always felt it was unpatriotic.

The problem with the Confederate Flag is the type of people who have historically used it to symbolize their movement/feelings towards people of color, jews, etc. While many of you may want to try holding on to all of the "Southern Pride" that goes with the flag, it's image has been ruined. Growing up Black in the South I distinctly remember that flag being flown by the more outwardly racist folks in the community. It's kinda hard to shake that image and many people of color have had the same experience.

[Valdrin]

Originally Posted by marksiwel

Yep. I have no problem with the Flag as it was, but basically its been warped in such a way that its no longer viable for me to use/wear it to express the point I was hoping for.

I just use the Texas Flag, or the American flag, or the Dont Tread on Me, or Come and Take it.
Sadly the CSA Flag is retired as a symbol for me.

There are better movements for "States Rights" then the CSA Battle-flag that dredge up America's darkest period and its most evil institution.

Similar situation for me. I have always thought that CSA Battle Flag was one of the best looking flags out of american history, and the only flag I liked better was "Don't Tread On Me." Then the damn skin heads, neo-nazis, and other race hate groups started using it as their flag, and turned it into a symbol of intolerance, hatred and white power. Very sad, but there is not much that can be done about it now.

[Natty]

Originally Posted by CLena88

Because they wanted slaves too, the union didn't fight to free slaves, they fought because they were too proud to let the CSA secede.

There was nothing in the US Constitution that prohibited states from seceding.

Was the Yankee invasion Unconstitutional?