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Old 05-06-2010, 09:17   #21
marksiwel
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Its like black people using the N word.
If they use it, its not bad anymore.
Southerns were trying to "Own" the Symbol, so that it wasnt bad anymore.
Its a form of guilt, really.
Deny the slavery thing, or tone it down, throw out some stuff about State Rights and "Second America Revolution" and Lincoln being the devil, and be REALLY Hostile about it.
Nevermind that the leaders of the CSA and pro-secessionists talked about preserving slavery, nevermind that it was written in their constitution multiple times

Guh, I dont even want to talk about the Civil War anymore.

The problem with the symbol isnt that normal healthy minded people use it, the problem is that its used for all the wrong things

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Whats funny is the Klan didnt really use this flag untill the 1950s, before that they used Uncle Sam, and the American flag among other American symbols.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:19   #22
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Originally Posted by Trigun View Post
After all, it was the North that won in large part due to a strategy of raping, murdering, and burning the homes of women and children in the south as their husbands and fathers were fighting union soldiers.
If you're going to make gross overstatements, at least put a <hyperbole> tag around it.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:27   #23
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US flag or Confederate flag trivia...

Under which flag was there slavery for 90 years?

Under which flag was there slavery for 4 years?
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:27   #24
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Originally Posted by Trigun View Post
*Snip* Although comparing Hitler to the confederate flag seems deliberately inflammatory. After all, it was the North that won in large part due to a strategy of raping, murdering, and burning the homes of women and children in the south as their husbands and fathers were fighting union soldiers.
War is Hell -William Tecumseh Sherman

I would say the North won because of a Larger Army, Better Industrial Resources, More money, and with the ability to raise and outfit an Army faster than the CSA, Not to mention the US Navy was far superior to the CSA Navy which was almost a non entity.

Shermans march was just a faster way to end the war.

It could have gone on 3 more years, but more people would have died than the number of People Killed and Raped by Shermans men.

As for the raping, we dont know that the CSA soldiers didnt rape
Rape has been very under reported through the years
http://cwmemory.com/2009/08/22/rape-...f-gender-bias/

I mean US WW2 Soldiers raped burned down Germans, Italian , and Japaneses Civilians, but we still honor them
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:36   #25
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that happened under the american flag also.and after the war durring reconstruction in the south. look at how not only blacks were trated in the north but also the irish,chinese,and others.
True, you cannot find any nation's flag that hasn't had some horrible attorcieties committed under it.

But the CSA battle flag is different, in that it's purpose was to preserve the legal right to do those things.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:42   #26
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Originally Posted by Andy123 View Post
True, you cannot find any nation's flag that hasn't had some horrible attorcieties committed under it.

But the CSA battle flag is different, in that it's purpose was to preserve the legal right to do those things.
Andy, in 1857 just before the war, Under which flag and which Supreme Court did the Dred Scott v. Sandford, decision come?

What did that decision say?
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:46   #27
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I think marksiwel was closest to the answer with this...

"The problem with the symbol isnt that normal healthy minded people use it, the problem is that its used for all the wrong things"

Bad people have given the flag a bad name, and has tarnished it for use by those who would use it in display of their Southern pride/heritage.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:47   #28
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Andy, in 1857 just before the war, Under which flag and which Supreme Court did the Dred Scott v. Sandford, decision come?

What did that decision say?
Natty, honestly, are you goign to try to say with a straight face that the issue that drove the states apart, the issue that pushed the south to believe that their economic survivial depended upon seccession, was anything other than slavery?

Sorry, it just don't wash. And yes, I do realize that at times, slavery was legal under many flags, but by 1860 change was in the air. THe south didn't want to change, so the made a new flag, and fought to preserve the status quo. They lost and the laws changed. Yes the war was brutal, with great brutality, but in the end the laws changed. Without a doubt these changes led to many legal, unintended consequeses that we still live with today. Some good, some bad. Such is almost always the nature of exercising government power.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:52   #29
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Hitler had nothing to do with the CSA, and last time I checked the CSA had nothing to do with genocide. the last thing we need is for gun owners to start getting bleeding hearts and crying about this nonsense, Some of us are the only sane people left. If anything the people who are *****ing should thank the CSA for bringing their ancestors to America, So they can sit at home today, smoke crack, and live off the gov't.
This is probably the most ignorant post I have ever seen on GlockTalk. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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Old 05-06-2010, 09:57   #30
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Originally Posted by marksiwel View Post
Whats funny is the Klan didnt really use this flag untill the 1950s, before that they used Uncle Sam, and the American flag among other American symbols.
I think that's the main problem. The classic "Rebel" flag was the battle flag of the Confederate Army and as such it used to be a largely non-political symbol denoting a rebellious fighting spirit and general disdain for authority.

It wasn't really a symbol of racism until the KKK started usurping it in the mid-late 1950s and the Neo-Nazis started waving it around in the 1970s and 80s.

If we Southerners want someone to blame for the Rebel Flag becoming associated with modern-day racism, we should be blaming the Klan and Neo Nazis.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:57   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy123 View Post
Natty, honestly, are you goign to try to say with a straight face that the issue that drove the states apart, the issue that pushed the south to believe that their economic survivial depended upon seccession, was anything other than slavery?

Sorry, it just don't wash. And yes, I do realize that at times, slavery was legal under many flags, but by 1860 change was in the air. THe south didn't want to change, so the made a new flag, and fought to preserve the status quo. They lost and the laws changed. Yes the war was brutal, with great brutality, but in the end the laws changed. Without a doubt these changes led to many legal, unintended consequeses that we still live with today. Some good, some bad. Such is almost always the nature of exercising government power.
Andy, some states still slavery after the war was over, were they Confederate or Union.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:58   #32
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Originally Posted by travclem View Post
Hitler had nothing to do with the CSA, and last time I checked the CSA had nothing to do with genocide. the last thing we need is for gun owners to start getting bleeding hearts and crying about this nonsense, Some of us are the only sane people left. If anything the people who are *****ing should thank the CSA for bringing their ancestors to America, So they can sit at home today, smoke crack, and live off the gov't.
You sir, make me ashamed that you are also a Fellow Texan
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:59   #33
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Last time I checked, no one called Germany "the land of the free".
I love ya bro, but thats not what he's saying... He's saying that Hitler took a country that was crushed and made it great again.. People in Germany had high regard for their leader, the Fuhrer. Sure, it wasn't a democracy or a republic, it was facism however, argue it or not, many people didn't mind... majority anyway. How many don't agree with half of what the Federal Government does but stay here anyway? Much akin to Nazi Germany..


I remember when Soldiers, US Soldiers were being spit on, **** on and pissed on by their countrymen... They'd go to war, paying debts they felt they had, kicking ass, taking names, burying friends, trying to put friends back together in a place called Vietnam.. Only to come home to another war. They were seen as outcasts, scumbags, derilicts, baby killers, much like the Nazi's in Germany..

Now, every soldier here gets a military discount, they're regarded highly no matter what branch, what service, what discipline.... What happened there?...


I think the change in the flag is typical revolution of beliefs. Any country, any movement, any beliefs can be changed radically overtime...

In 1987 if you didn't spend 2 cans of hairspray on your hair, dress up like a chick and play a fluorescent colored guitar, you couldn't play out in bars.
Now, if you do, you're a ******. Go figure right?

Time changes all things. ALL things. The sooner you realize that, the better your life will be.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:01   #34
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Originally Posted by GroovyChristian View Post
If you're going to make gross overstatements, at least put a <hyperbole> tag around it.
If I make a gross overstatement I would to that. Have you never heard of the March to the Sea? Do you not know who William Tecumseh Sherman was? If the North was all noble and altruistic and the war was all about freeing the slaves then why did he burn slaves to death? The north was not doing so well against the south and needed a different strategy. So they chose what we would call today "terrorism". Remember this wasn't a civil war. The south was not fighting for control of the nation. They were fighting to leave the nation. It was a War of Northern Aggression. And don't think I am some southerner and this is about southern pride. I am not. I just read history at a little greater depth than what was handed out in the public school system.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:02   #35
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I think that's the main problem. The classic "Rebel" flag was the battle flag of the Confederate Army and as such it used to be a largely non-political symbol denoting a rebellious fighting spirit and general disdain for authority.

It wasn't really a symbol of racism until the KKK started usurping it in the mid-late 1950s and the Neo-Nazis started waving it around in the 1970s and 80s.

If we Southerners want someone to blame for the Rebel Flag becoming associated with modern-day racism, we should be blaming the Klan and Neo Nazis.
Yep. I have no problem with the Flag as it was, but basically its been warped in such a way that its no longer viable for me to use/wear it to express the point I was hoping for.

I just use the Texas Flag, or the American flag, or the Dont Tread on Me, or Come and Take it.
Sadly the CSA Flag is retired as a symbol for me.

There are better movements for "States Rights" then the CSA Battle-flag that dredge up America's darkest period and its most evil institution.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:02   #36
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Originally Posted by marksiwel View Post
I remember a Military man, who loved his country and fought for it. Afterward his country was poor and broke and being blamed for the War.
But he rebuilt his country, made it an Industrial power, gave the people jobs and their pride back. Helped them put food on the table. He also got their land that was stolen from them.
but that was Hitler.
Should Germans put Swastikas on their Volkswagens in honor of "German Pride"?

WTF?

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Old 05-06-2010, 10:06   #37
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Originally Posted by Trigun View Post
If I make a gross overstatement I would to that. Have you never heard of the March to the Sea? Do you not know who William Tecumseh Sherman was? If the North was all noble and altruistic and the war was all about freeing the slaves then why did he burn slaves to death? The north was not doing so well against the south and needed a different strategy. So they chose what we would call today "terrorism". Remember this wasn't a civil war. The south was not fighting for control of the nation. They were fighting to leave the nation. It was a War of Northern Aggression. And don't think I am some southerner and this is about southern pride. I am not. I just read history at a little greater depth than what was handed out in the public school system.
Who said the NORTH was about Freeing Slaves, so far the points have been about the SOUTH Fighting to KEEP Slaves.
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:06   #38
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I don't know which came first, the left hating that flag or the ****** bag racist morons using that flag as a symbol.

Either way, the symbol is pretty much ruined which is a shame.

The swastika was originally (among other things) a Japanese religious symbol. After the Nazis hijacked it, even the Japs stopped displaying it in the West (after losing the war).

Like it or not, no matter which side is to blame, that flag currently symbolizes hate and slavery to most people.

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Old 05-06-2010, 10:08   #39
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WTF?

Shouldnt the Germans be proud that someone stood up for them and cast aside the unfair shackles of the Treaty of Versailles, helping make Germany Great again?
I mean if we can ignore Slavery in the CSA, then we can ignore the Holocaust right?
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:08   #40
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Does anyone else find it odd that none of these guys making the slavery argument has said anything about the North owning slaves as well?
Slavery was not just something that occurred in the south.
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