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Old 03-29-2010, 11:56   #26
MacG22
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Originally Posted by AcenJay View Post
What if the flight makes a stop in a restrictive city or state along the way? Such as Chicago and/or New York? I was thinking about a trip from Miami, FL to Cleveland, Ohio, but the flight seems to stop in Chicago along the way and in New York on the way back.
There's no issue with transport in terms of connections.

Now, if it's a "stop over"...let's say, overnight and you leave the airport, then you are subject to the laws of the state/city. Generally, so long as you are on a flight out in the morning, you fall under "pass through" regs which your locked case can satisfy so long as you don't have it accessible to you in your means of conveyance. This is general, though. Check and make sure you know the laws of a city if you get caught (canceled flights). This site is a good guide for basic pass through info:
http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Federal/Read.aspx?id=59
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:07   #27
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Originally Posted by MacG22 View Post
There's no issue with transport in terms of connections.

Now, if it's a "stop over"...let's say, overnight and you leave the airport, then you are subject to the laws of the state/city. Generally, so long as you are on a flight out in the morning, you fall under "pass through" regs which your locked case can satisfy so long as you don't have it accessible to you in your means of conveyance. This is general, though. Check and make sure you know the laws of a city if you get caught (canceled flights). This site is a good guide for basic pass through info:
http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Federal/Read.aspx?id=59
I did read that guide before and the part that has "DECISION ON NEW YORK/NEW JERSEY PORT AUTHORITY CASE DUE SOON" makes New York sound especially worrisome.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:24   #28
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I did read that guide before and the part that has "DECISION ON NEW YORK/NEW JERSEY PORT AUTHORITY CASE DUE SOON" makes New York sound especially worrisome.
Yeah. I fly through New York occasionally. It's not a huge connection hub for me. But I've had a few cancellations in Chicago and NY before (when not flying with my firearm). Even Chicago has a workable pass through law if you're not there long, IMO.

But with NY, I've always assumed that if it happened that I would leave them in Terminal luggage storage. I believe all airports have this. There is a fee (for example, at JFK a small bag is $8 per 24 hours, a large bag is like $15). But it stays at the terminal and is locked down, etc. Even with Chicago's pass through laws--being stricter than most outside of Boston's--I would probably leave the bag in terminal storage, put any clothes or dop kit in my carry-on, and not worry.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:35   #29
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UPDATE:

California is about as bad as it gets. So I just called California DOJ firearms office ((916)263-4887) and asked about a stopover/cancellation/etc and what I should do.

There were two suggestions, and he was incredibly helpful and friendly:

1. Consider terminal storage

2. If not, and a passenger (non resident of California) is forced to stop over in California (Los Angeles from LAX, for example), then the hotel becomes their temporary residence and there's no need to call ATF/DOJ, etc, to inform. Just keep the handgun in TSA condition--broken down is best, locked, unloaded, etc-- and all is fine. He said this works for a period of passing through. If you decided to spend a few extra days and play, it would become subject to out of state transport and etc and may become a different situation.

I'd want to call NY as well to see if it's the same, but California is about as strict as it gets so I imagine that if you inquire at each state, about the same standard could apply. That is an assumption. I'll see if I can get ahold of NYC as well.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:49   #30
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What was the specific problem you had in NYC?

What would you do in case for some crazy reason they DON'T let you check in the gun? How would you ship it back to yourself?
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Old 03-29-2010, 13:26   #31
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Ok. I just talked to ATF in NYC ((718) 650-4070). Little different answer. Regarding the California procedure, they said, "That's they way it works almost everywhere. Here, we make a different recommendation." You'll see at the end that this is not necessarily true, the California procedure is valid, but there are two agencies and jurisdiction to watch out for--NYPD and ATF. Here are the comments for both.

The agent I spoke with had just gotten out of the military. He was extremely polite and helpful, and transferred me to their legal department for followup questions (message left) as well as giving me a number to a gentleman with the state police. Again, very helpful. I'm going to give you the long version, but at the end is a simple conclusion.

He said that NYC is different than almost all others. Federally, he said there's no problem with possession. So ATF doesn't have any issue. But the state law is intense, and you are not permitted to have possession of a firearm in NYC is you are a non resident and you don't have any sort of permit (and except for special situations--law enforcement, etc--non residents cannot have permits). He said that there is a fight going on now regarding even taking possession on the airport grounds from the luggage retrieval area. TSA takes custody at the check in counter, and their custody ends when they return it to you. There have been some legal battles about if a traveler was considered "in transport" or not. He said, though, that ATF doesn't care about possession and the NYPD would laws I would be under.

So to be clear about this first part... ATF has no issue, NYPD and State Police would be the ones to make sure you please.

So I called and spoke with an agent of the NYPD Pistol Licensing division (646-610-5560). She was not as friendly, acted put out by the call, but gave some really good and confident information.

1. She said that NYPD doesn't do anything in the airport. Not that they can't, they just don't. They don't care, so long as everything stays locked down in the luggage (Stays in "TSA Condition"). ATF and TSA really govern that area, and so as long as you do what they are comfortable with there are no issues. Terminal storage is no issue for them, because if TSA and the ATF don't have an issue on the airport grounds, they don't care. That is, for a packed, stowed, locked gun case in your luggage. "Pull it out or talk about it with other passengers or make everyone aware you have it and then we may care... but that's because of you, not us."

2. She said that if you're caught in travel (NY is not your DESTINATION), and you need to go to a hotel, etc, that as long as the weapon stays in "TSA CONDITION", locked down, in the luggage, etc, that there is no issue. They have decided to treat is as interstate transport and that's fine. She was very clear that this means, IN THE LUGGAGE, LOCKED DOWN, never on the person or "in their immediate possession" in the sense of unlocked, assembled, etc. She said that doing that will get you hung on the gallows. But just being a traveler who was caught in NYC and kept it all in TSA Condition would be fine. When driving, put the bag in the trunk or out of your reach if possible. Don't walk around town with your bag. Put it in the hotel/your residence while there and walk around with a different bag if you "feel the need to tour the burrows with a bag on you." Never pull it out.

CONCLUSIONS:


According to several conversations with TSA, TSA Legal, DOJ/ATF in California and New York, and the NYPD Gun Agency, it appears the "California" transport concept should be good ALMOST EVERYWHERE in the US right now. I didn't check Boston, because I never fly through there, but that's the other one I'd be cautious of. Other than that, it seems like emergency stopover or connection cancellation, etc, shouldn't be too much of an issue even in the worst cities so long as you leave everything locked up, put it in the back of the car/trunk when transporting, and just carry the bag as needed to go back and forth from hotel/residence and airport.

And it appears that the safest of the safest way to do it is just to purchase terminal storage if it happens to you. That way, even in NYC, no one will even give it a thought.
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Old 03-29-2010, 13:52   #32
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What was the specific problem you had in NYC?

What would you do in case for some crazy reason they DON'T let you check in the gun? How would you ship it back to yourself?
So long as you have it packaged to TSA standards and the airlines standards, there's no way they cannot let you check the gun. That's why I recommend having a copy of the regs on you, though, so you can show them.

I've never heard of that happening, by the way. If a desk agent acts confused, just politely ask for a supervisor. They know policy and won't rock the boat over it so long as you show you know the policies and have met them.
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Old 03-29-2010, 14:20   #33
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Ok. I understand the NYC issue. However, I plan to fly to upstate NY to do some gun training and then to NYC to stay with a friend over the weekend.

It looks like it's going to be complicated.
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Old 03-29-2010, 14:29   #34
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Ok. I understand the NYC issue. However, I plan to fly to upstate NY to do some gun training and then to NYC to stay with a friend over the weekend.

It looks like it's going to be complicated.
Yeah. If your DESTINATION is NYC and you're not just passing through, then--in the state-- you are not permitted to possess a firearm without a license.

I would not take your weapon in this case.


Also, you want to check the laws about taking your gun to that upstate course. The ATF agent told me that the non possession by non residents was state wide. He said if you have a shoot in the state (competition, etc) that they recommend shipping the gun to your location, within proper laws. He was a military guy... seemed very pro gun... and said the laws there were nuts right now, and if asked he tells non residents whose DESTINATION is NY State to be extremely cautious.
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Old 03-29-2010, 14:30   #35
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Yeah. If your DESTINATION is NYC and you're not just passing through, then--in the state-- you are not permitted to possess a firearm without a license.

I would not take your weapon in this case.
Thanks. That kind of ruins everything but I guess I could always use a friend's gun fro training or rent one.
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Old 03-29-2010, 14:32   #36
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great information, you're the man.
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Old 03-29-2010, 14:47   #37
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I vote sticky on this, great info OP!
I especially like the cable idea.
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Old 03-29-2010, 14:59   #38
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I've been using pacsafe product in the like when I traveled to Thailand with my camera gear and laptop. I used it to lock my stuff inside my room when I went out but the net can be used to lock your gun case inside your suitcase and into it.

I love their product and take it with me when I travel and think I might have valuables that I will need to leave unsupervised.

It will not stop a determined theif but it will slow him down and will deter those oppertunity thieves.

http://www.pacsafe.com/www/index.php...n=detail&id=50
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Old 03-29-2010, 15:00   #39
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Thanks. That kind of ruins everything but I guess I could always use a friend's gun fro training or rent one.
If it were me, I'd rent one there. DON'T forgo the training, just make other arrangements regarding the firearm.


However, I did post a number to the NYPD Pistol Licensing division (oversees the state). That's the department that handles all firearms inquiries. Just tell an agent about the training upstate, etc and see what they say.
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Old 03-29-2010, 15:08   #40
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Ok. I understand the NYC issue. However, I plan to fly to upstate NY to do some gun training and then to NYC to stay with a friend over the weekend.

It looks like it's going to be complicated.
Do NOT do that and get caught.
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Old 03-29-2010, 15:12   #41
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I've been using pacsafe product in the like when I traveled to Thailand with my camera gear and laptop. I used it to lock my stuff inside my room when I went out but the net can be used to lock your gun case inside your suitcase and into it.

I love their product and take it with me when I travel and think I might have valuables that I will need to leave unsupervised.

It will not stop a determined theif but it will slow him down and will deter those oppertunity thieves.

http://www.pacsafe.com/www/index.php...n=detail&id=50
Pacsafe is a great product. NOTHING will stop a determined thief but time. But it's a good product to keep it from walking away. It can be cut pretty quickly (I've tested them) but they have to cut each section until they can get it out because of the slash stop.

There's also this cable. If cut, it set's off a 120db alarm:
http://www.corporatetravelsafety.com...ble-p-261.html

Carry Issues


And this pacsafe bag has that slash liner on the inside and can be a great way to carry ammo, mags, etc (it's soft sided so won't work for the gun on the airline) but is a great way to store it at your destination or in your car:
http://www.corporatetravelsafety.com...afe-p-872.html

Carry Issues

Carry Issues
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Old 03-29-2010, 16:20   #42
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Do NOT do that and get caught.
I have no intention of doing that.
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Old 03-30-2010, 04:38   #43
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NYC Airport Law Enforcement

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...there are two agencies and jurisdiction to watch out for--NYPD and ATF.
Actually, the law enforcement agency that will present possible problems for anyone flying out of the greater NYC area airports with a firearm is the Port Authority Police of New York-New Jersey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Au...and_New_Jersey
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Old 03-30-2010, 06:23   #44
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Good write-up. It should be noted that the stock glock box and a stock glock cable lock are fully sufficient for checking a gun.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:42   #45
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Actually, the law enforcement agency that will present possible problems for anyone flying out of the greater NYC area airports with a firearm is the Port Authority Police of New York-New Jersey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Au...and_New_Jersey
I lumped the PA under NYPD, in this case, because the ATF agent said that that NYPD Pistol Licensing are the ones deferred to when TSA, PA, NYPD, and ATF have an issue with firearms and the state law. That's who they call, so to speak.

However, I am certainly not an expert on the agencies there and only know what I was told in my conversations with those agencies. The numbers are posted above and I would encourage any NYC residents to investigate further post your findings here for the benefit of the community.

Quote:
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Good write-up. It should be noted that the stock glock box and a stock glock cable lock are fully sufficient for checking a gun.
Yes and no. I asked TSA if a cable lock was a sufficient lock for the gun case (as a backup...because I have two dozen of them sitting in the safe). According to TSA, a cable lock is fine so long as it prevents the case from opening. However, if you can still open it enough to get the gun out (which you CAN, with many cable locks) then they will not permit it to be loaded on the plane. TSA told me that the box must be locked SECURELY, meaning that you can't just reach in and get it out.

So regarding cable locks their answer was, essentially, "If you've got a way to make a cable lock keep it closed--which most won't do--then yes. But cable locks were designed for the firearm itself, not the case". A stock glock cable can be wrapped around the handle of the stock glock box pretty securely, IMO, but it can also leave some slack if you're not careful.

I'm sure many folks have used the cable lock just fine and can continue to, but I also wanted to let you know that it could be a problem with TSA if you get the wrong guy on the wrong day and that may not be a chance worth taking. The combo masterlock I put on my case cost me $10 and is twice as strong as the cable locks I got with my firearms (in terms of force to cut). However, if you're going to use your stock glock box (I use my M&P case) there's no lock hole so you'll have to improvise in some way.
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Old 03-30-2010, 10:00   #46
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the TSA/check in agents were not allowed to handle your firearm. You were the only one that could handle it and show them that it was unloaded.
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Old 03-30-2010, 10:10   #47
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the TSA/check in agents were not allowed to handle your firearm. You were the only one that could handle it and show them that it was unloaded.
They can handle it for purposes of inspection and verification. At least they do, and in my experience they are not about to give up that activity any time soon. I've had them physically inspect almost every time I've ever brought it assembled, and I've had it physically inspected at secondary, too. The last thing I would recommend when they unlock that box is for you to reach for it. But that's just me.

But once it's inspected and locked, ONLY YOU are allowed to have the key.
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:37   #48
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Great info here. Just thought I would share a story from this morning at OHare. I am through here almost weekly. I sometimes bring a firearm and other times don't. This time I had NO firearm. When I'm on the road, I look at ammo prices, and if it's even $1 cheaper a box, I'll buy a couple. Hey, it doesn't cost anything. Anyway, I have never had any problems here at OHare. Ammo was in the original boxes and I hadn't exceeded the weight limit for United. Get to the counter, use kiosk and when the girl(very nice and polite) comes to tag my bag, I declare that I have ammo. She is taking me to the special luggage desk, which is normal, but nobody is there. She grabs a Supervisor. He immediately freaks that I have ammo. "You can't check this here!" The girl calmly tells him the situation. He is digging for forms and all kind of stuff. He brings me one of the orange tags for firearms, the one that says "unloaded Firearm". I have a bewildered look, and he sees it. I am at this point kinda laughing inside. He stops and says I have to see a TSA agent. Cool. He explains rather rudely that I was unwilling to fill out a "unloaded firearm" card. I said "Sir, I'm not carrying a firearm, and you can't unload bullets without shooting them". TSA guy laughs. Supervisor clearly pissed. Asks TSA what the rule is. TSA guy explains that all is cool and no card is needed when no firearm is present. Never had any trouble here before, just thought it was ironic that I ran across this post last night. Oh, he also wanted to put something on the bag so the TSA would no there was ammo in the bag. TSA guy said absolutely not. Once again great info in this thread!

Only other airport story is coming home form Hawaii(1993). Getting out of Marines and coming home. Have a New Model Black 45 long colt in a locked case in my locked sea bag. Back before 9/11 so everything could be locked. Lady asked to inspect so I dig it out. She starts waving a Stainless Steel 45 with a 7.5" barrel around asking for assistance from some of the guys behind the counter. I asked her to put it down until someone got there or I could show her where to inspect. I heard the others chewing her out as I walked towards the gates.

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Old 04-01-2010, 06:49   #49
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Originally Posted by MacG22 View Post
If it were me, I'd rent one there. DON'T forgo the training, just make other arrangements regarding the firearm.


...
In general, you will be hard pressed to rent a gun in NY. Only a few select places do that. And unless you are in the state as a LEO or doing very specific TRAINING or COMPETITION affiliated with the National Rifle Association, possession of a handgun in NY would be unlawful.

Under no circumstance, should anyone who is not

a) LE
b) NYS pistol permit holder

attempt to traverse NYC airports with a handgun. YOU WILL BE ARRESTED. YOU WILL MISS YOU FLIGHT. YOU WILL BE PROCESSED, FINGERPRINTED AND BOOKED (unless you are the wife of some CNN muckety-muck).

The port authority is the lead LE agency at NYC airports, but if a gun arrest has to be made, the NYPD takes over.

'Drew
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:38   #50
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In general, you will be hard pressed to rent a gun in NY. Only a few select places do that. And unless you are in the state as a LEO or doing very specific TRAINING or COMPETITION affiliated with the National Rifle Association, possession of a handgun in NY would be unlawful.

Under no circumstance, should anyone who is not

a) LE
b) NYS pistol permit holder

attempt to traverse NYC airports with a handgun. YOU WILL BE ARRESTED. YOU WILL MISS YOU FLIGHT. YOU WILL BE PROCESSED, FINGERPRINTED AND BOOKED (unless you are the wife of some CNN muckety-muck).

The port authority is the lead LE agency at NYC airports, but if a gun arrest has to be made, the NYPD takes over.

'Drew
1. I assumed renting, I guess incorrectly. Because it would seem that if there was a training course in NY State that, like California, they would have a way to rent them there. Otherwise how can they train? I've done some training in California and the schools were always on their own private property. They always rented/loaned/etc. But in general it seems that is a bad business model to be a handgun trainer for the public if you live in NY. At least if you model includes residents of other states.

2. Yeah, the folks I spoke with that outlined the situation in New York for me were all very strict about this being about a traveler, who's destination was NOT NYC that was stranded due to airline cancellation of connections.

They were also very clear that if NYC was the destination, or if there was any reason to go on their radar, that the consequences were both swift and severe.

Drew, let's say you moved out of NYC. No longer a permit holder. You move to Tennessee. You going to attend a competition in the Carolinas or some such. You book the flight, check your gun according to standards, and make the first leg to Chicago. In Chicago you're told that the flights have been changed due to weather and you'll be making a connection in NYC. Once in NYC your flight is cancelled. It's 11PM, but you'll be on the first flight out in the morning. (This is almost an exact situation that happened to me, just with different cities but with the stranding in NYC--I did not have a firearm at the time so it was actually kind of a fun interruption).

What would you do when you got to NYC?
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