357SIG proving to be an unbelievable manstopper??? - Page 23

N/Apower · 02-27-2010, 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDDL-UP

I'm not going to argue with anyone's personal experience... it is what it is.

Does the 357 Sig offer advantages over a 9mm +p+? Yes. More velocity and greater energy.

Does the 9mm +P+ offer advantages over the 357 Sig? Yes. More capacity and less recoil.

The 357 Sig is a perfectly capable round - no doubt about it! My concern is when people act like since they are armed with a 357 Sig that they are carrying an "instant death ray", hence the name of this thread.... "357 Sig proving to be an unbelieveable manstopper". Sorry but the 357 Sig is not an "unbelieveable manstopper". A perfectly capable manstopper? Yes! Does it have advantages over other calibers? Yes! Does it have disadvantages to other calibers? Yes!

It is my opinion that a 38 Super would be a better choice for a defensive round because you don't loose any capacity over a 9mm.

The .38 Super is 1.280" in OAL, while the 357SIG is 1.140" in OAL. The 10mm is 1.260" in OAL, and the .45ACP is also 1.260" OAL.

The 9mm you compare the .38 Super to with regards to capacity is 1.169" OAL. The .45 GAP is the answer to the desire for a smaller-frame than the .45 ACP. If the .45 ACP is .02" OAL SHORTER than the .38 Super and it still prompted a manufacturer to design an entirely new pistol and caliber to reduce grip-size relative to OAL of the cartridge, how popular do you think the 38 Super is going to be in a double-stack magazine configuration? I will give up 2-3 rounds capacity for the sake of having a more ergonomic grip.

glock20c10mm · 02-28-2010, 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDDL-UP

Sorry but the 357 Sig is not an "unbelieveable manstopper". A perfectly capable manstopper?

What if we took out the term unbelievable, as it is a very strong word, and changed it to better. Does your view change then?

glock20c10mm · 02-28-2010, 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDDL-UP

My concern is when people act like since they are armed with a 357 Sig that they are carrying an "instant death ray".....

No, most people know the 10mm Auto is the equivelant to the "instant death ray".

357SIG can't touch it.

N/Apower · 02-28-2010, 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock20c10mm

What if we took out the term unbelievable, as it is a very strong word, and changed it to better. Does your view change then?

Actually, I would prefer removing the term "manstopper", as when you say it a few times in a row, it just sounds/feels awkward. Kindof like "manhole cover".

It is also politically incorrect from a sex standpoint. Further, many dogs and other animals are shot with service calibers as well.

I think the statement could have been changed to "Is the 357SIG showing itself to be especially capable of negatively affecting a target to produce a cessation of activity on the part of the shootee?"

Then again, screw it. We know darn well what was meant by the title, even if there was a little hyperbole.

N/Apower · 02-28-2010, 23:42

Well, I have come to a conclusion in this matter.

The 9mm and the 357SIG, when loaded with Gold-Dots of optimal weight for caliber, crush almost the same amount of tissue. They should offer identical performance.

They don't.

The people who I have communicated with who have first-hand experience with agencies that use the 357SIG has reported that it is more effective than what they transitioned from. Especially stated, was about the TX DPS, who switched from the 9mm, and the .45. The shots-per-stop required were reported to have decreased across the board compared to .45 and 9mm. The agency is quite pleased with the round. This information comes from Todd Green and was posted publically on another forum.

His account mirrors that of others whos accounts I have either solicited or read, who directely interact with agencies issuing this caliber.

In my unprofessional opinion, the 357SIG is superior to other calibers in "it's league".

Does it cause TBI? Does it create a pulsitile wave-form? Will being hit in the hand with it cause premature erectile disfunction? I don't know the answers, and to be honest, beyond the academics, I really don't care. I believe the round to be superior in its on-target effect, and the dynamics of that superiority don't change the results one bit.

*one of the main arguments against the experience of TX DPS is that better training could have resulted in better shot-placement. There is no proof this occured, and further, it deflates the argument (and I do believe this is fact) that the 357SIG is harder to control (fire rapidly and accurately) than the 9mm and according to some, the .45.

Anyways, for me, the case is closed. I am happy with my choice, I base this happiness on facts and experience garnered from qualified individuals, and the rest is just details until new information exists.

Alaskapopo · 03-01-2010, 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by N/Apower

Well, I have come to a conclusion in this matter.

The 9mm and the 357SIG, when loaded with Gold-Dots of optimal weight for caliber, crush almost the same amount of tissue. They should offer identical performance.

They don't.

The people who I have communicated with who have first-hand experience with agencies that use the 357SIG has reported that it is more effective than what they transitioned from. Especially stated, was about the TX DPS, who switched from the 9mm, and the .45. The shots-per-stop required were reported to have decreased across the board compared to .45 and 9mm. The agency is quite pleased with the round. This information comes from Todd Green and was posted publically on another forum.

His account mirrors that of others whos accounts I have either solicited or read, who directely interact with agencies issuing this caliber.

In my unprofessional opinion, the 357SIG is superior to other calibers in "it's league".

Does it cause TBI? Does it create a pulsitile wave-form? Will being hit in the hand with it cause premature erectile disfunction? I don't know the answers, and to be honest, beyond the academics, I really don't care. I believe the round to be superior in its on-target effect, and the dynamics of that superiority don't change the results one bit.

*one of the main arguments against the experience of TX DPS is that better training could have resulted in better shot-placement. There is no proof this occured, and further, it deflates the argument (and I do believe this is fact) that the 357SIG is harder to control (fire rapidly and accurately) than the 9mm and according to some, the .45.

Anyways, for me, the case is closed. I am happy with my choice, I base this happiness on facts and experience garnered from qualified individuals, and the rest is just details until new information exists.

I can make unspecific statements about the performance of any caliber. Show us the data from Texas DPS. Who did you talk to? how many shootings? what were the circumstances? Sorry war stories passed among friends at a poker game do nothing for me.
Pat

N/Apower · 03-01-2010, 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

I can make unspecific statements about the performance of any caliber. Show us the data from Texas DPS. Who did you talk to? how many shootings? what were the circumstances? Sorry war stories passed among friends at a poker game do nothing for me.
Pat

Todd Green. You know him as "ToddG". Shoot him a PM, he can tell you what all he knows better than I can.

Aside from that, many agencies have used the caliber for a good while. Long enough to have gone through at least 1 "replacement of platform" during which they could have dumped it in favor of their former caliber, I would think. (FAMs is one example who changed entire platforms but kept the caliber). They are sticking with the caliber--even though it is blasty, has increased wear over 9mm, and is more expensive.

uz2bUSMC · 03-01-2010, 06:01

Quote:

Actually, I would prefer removing the term "manstopper", as when you say it a few times in a row, it just sounds/feels awkward. Kindof like "manhole cover".

...

automan · 03-01-2010, 06:29

The Texas DPS story that I've read was that a veteran LEO was using a 45 auto whereas a rookie LEO was using a 357SIG in a shooting involving a tractor trailer. The 45 auto didn't penetrate the cab glass but the 357SIG did and stopped the rouge driver. That incident, and other similar auto body penetration incidents, compelled DPS to look hard at adapting the 357SIG for its auto body penetration effects, which it subsequently did.

N/Apower · 03-01-2010, 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by automan

The Texas DPS story that I've read was that a veteran LEO was using a 45 auto whereas a rookie LEO was using a 357SIG in a shooting involving a tractor trailer. The 45 auto didn't penetrate the cab glass but the 357SIG did and stopped the rouge driver. That incident, and other similar auto body penetration incidents, compelled DPS to look hard at adapting the 357SIG for its auto body penetration effects, which it subsequently did.

I am referring to what the TX DPS conveyed to SIG about their over-all satisfaction with the 357SIG after an analysis of their OIS's indicated that it performed superior to the 9mm and .45 with regards to shots required to stop criminal activity. Not an isolated incident.

glock20c10mm · 03-01-2010, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by N/Apower

Actually, I would prefer removing the term "manstopper", as when you say it a few times in a row, it just sounds/feels awkward. Kindof like "manhole cover".

It is also politically incorrect from a sex standpoint. Further, many dogs and other animals are shot with service calibers as well.

I think the statement could have been changed to "Is the 357SIG showing itself to be especially capable of negatively affecting a target to produce a cessation of activity on the part of the shootee?"

Then again, screw it. We know darn well what was meant by the title, even if there was a little hyperbole.

UGH!!!, don't even get me started on political correctness...

Otherwise, nice post.

glock20c10mm · 03-01-2010, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by N/Apower

The 9mm and the 357SIG, when loaded with Gold-Dots of optimal weight for caliber, crush almost the same amount of tissue.

They don't.

Yeah, there's a fair amount of difference there. It's more noticeable when you take a sheet of paper, or whatever, and cover the first 3" (according to the 3" mark of the rulers) of penetration in both pics at the same time.

N/Apower · 03-01-2010, 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock20c10mm

Yeah, there's a fair amount of difference there. It's more noticeable when you take a sheet of paper, or whatever, and cover the first 3" (according to the 3" mark of the rulers) of penetration in both pics at the same time.

If anything, the 357SIG round was less traumatic. Kindof suprising.

glock20c10mm · 03-01-2010, 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by N/Apower

If anything, the 357SIG round was less traumatic. Kindof suprising.

Yeah, but I see it as a result of bullet design. Too bad we couldn't see what total penetration depth would have ended up being. Seems the Gold Dot bullet design didn't allow for much retarding force at 357SIG velocities, or at least the Gold Dot bullet (don't know the weight) in the 9mm worked better for more retarding force. I see it as simply a function of individual bullet design. The Gold Dot bullet may not be the best choice in 357SIG for those of us that want maximum energy transfer while still reaching an acceptable penetration depth.

SDDL-UP · 03-01-2010, 20:05

N/Apower

You cannot underestimate the phsycological effect of having confidence in one's weapon, I'm glad you have confidence in yours. I have many calibers and, given the right load, I feel comfortable with any of them. Is one better than the others? Not in my opinion. There are always trade-offs, even with the 357 Sig.

I really have to wonder what would have happened if Sig had decided to market it as the 9mm Sig Magnum. They sure have taken advantage of the 357 mystique.

N/Apower · 03-01-2010, 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDDL-UP

N/Apower

You cannot underestimate the phsycological effect of having confidence in one's weapon, I'm glad you have confidence in yours. I have many calibers and, given the right load, I feel comfortable with any of them. Is one better than the others? Not in my opinion. There are always trade-offs, even with the 357 Sig.

I really have to wonder what would have happened if Sig had decided to market it as the 9mm Sig Magnum. They sure have taken advantage of the 357 mystique.

I agree, just don't mistake it for over-confidence. I understand it's a pistol, not a howitzer. I feel the 357SIG has an edge, though.

I think the marketing was good, the ONLY thing that went wrong was what often does. The product was not QUITE as mature as it should have been when it hit the market. If setback had been taken care of already, and better bullets were on the market (such as the Gold Dot, instead of the Federal load), I think the round would have done a LOT better, popularity-wise.

Whether it deserves it or not, the 357 Magnum was/is a legend. To capitalize on this and follow in it's footsteps, SIG had to have gotten it perfect. Right fron the start. When you are following a legend, you can't stumble. You can't even slip. The 357SIG slipped a little, and it lost the momentum that its name and claimed purpose gave it initially.

glock20c10mm · 03-01-2010, 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDDL-UP

You cannot underestimate the phsycological effect of having confidence in one's weapon, I'm glad you have confidence in yours.

Much more often than not, psychologically not having confidence in a weapon is brought on by one psychologically talking/thinking themselves out of it based on misconceptions they have or lies (not necessarily on purpose) they've been told.

Not saying this to argue what you posted, just saying, as reguardless what I posted, I see what you posted still being true.

davetron · 09-20-2012, 07:13

I know this is an old thread but I just stumbled across it so it's new to me

I have a friend in the NC Highway Patrol and they switched from the .40 to .357 sig a few years ago because they had several instances of the .40's deflecting off windshields. For LEO's barrier penetration is more of an issue than it is for civilian SD so I can see why they switched. I currently shoot 9mm, .40 , and .45 but I'm going to get a .357 sig barrel for my Glock 23. For some reason people seem to have a knee jerk reaction to .357 sig, either they love it or hate it. I love all calibers! I think it is itonic however that a lot of the 9mm only lovers will trash .357 sig and then go on other boards and tell how "light and fast" is better than "heavy and slow" if that is true for them then you would think that all pro-9mm folk would love .357 sig because it's light and FASTER!

dkf · 09-20-2012, 07:52

I have noticed what you mentioned towards the end of your post also.

The above gel photos of 9mm GD vs .357sig GD is completely backwards to what I have seen with MANY other tests. Looks like they put the round on the wrong gel for the photos.

cowboy1964 · 09-20-2012, 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock20c10mm

The Gold Dot bullet may not be the best choice in 357SIG for those of us that want maximum energy transfer while still reaching an acceptable penetration depth.

If the bullet doesn't exit the body then ALL of the energy HAS been transferred.

brokenprism · 09-20-2012, 09:08

"I carry 357sig, so I do like the round and would like to hear of popularity among Law Enforcement."

No offense to the author of this comment, but I think he accidentally revealed the psychology behind these kinds of posts: he carries it, and is looking for validation of his choice. Nothing wrong with that. Couldn't tell if the OP was leading with a statement, a question, or... a commercial.

JW1178 · 09-20-2012, 13:22

Ahh-choo! The dust from the old thread!

Well it's a good thread, despite the title. It does seem the .357sig is well liked by almost everyone who actually has one, whether it's joe blow, a enthusiast, law enforcement, ect. If all it were was a "hot nine" I think there would be a lot more let down by now. Those who show such protest for it usually are the caliber fanboys (one in particular) who don't even own one. I think if all it were is a "hot 9" or a fad there would be a lot more let down by now.

I wish these caliber fanboys would grow up. They all seem to think they are the smart one's that have seen some kind of light with their way of thinking that the majority of us are too stupid to see.

Bigpoppie50 · 09-20-2012, 14:19

I carry a S&WM&P357Sig daily or with a barrel change S&WM&P40 and occasionally a Gen4 Glock22.

Roering · 09-20-2012, 17:53

Nope.

avenues165 · 09-20-2012, 23:49

Love the 357 auto, it works for me.