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Old 02-27-2010, 22:53   #1
emt1581
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7.62x39 steel core, etc... ammo questions

Up until now the only ammo I've put through my AK/SKS has been Wolf FMJ.

But I'm curious if there are any "special" rounds in this caliber? That is, any rounds that will have more penetration, destruction, etc. capabilities?

I know I've seen some steel core ammo for sale on gunbroker but how different is that from the Wolf FMJ in terms of performance?

Also, would it be legal to use steel core ammo in a Draco pistol? IIRC steel core ammo is illegal in every state in pistols but maybe I'm wrong.

Please share your thought/experience on alternative ammo for this caliber.

Thanks!

-Emt1581
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Old 02-27-2010, 23:51   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
I know I've seen some steel core ammo for sale on gunbroker but how different is that from the Wolf FMJ in terms of performance?
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19885
In fact, there is a bit of a controversy brewing in some of the AAR’s coming in from OCONUS on the effectiveness of 7.62 x 39 mm ammunition. Initially, this appears somewhat strange, as there may be more forensic data available regarding wounds caused by the Russian 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ than for any other rifle cartridge. The original 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS 120.5 gr FMJ boat-tail bullet has a copper-plated steel jacket covering a large steel core and a typical muzzle velocity of 2340 f/s. In tissue, it typically travels approximately 9.8 to 10.6" point forward before beginning significant yaw. Most uncomplicated wounds of the torso and extremities have small punctate entrance and exit wounds and exhibit minimal internal tissue disruption since the bullet does not deform or fragment and usually exits before yaw occurs. Total penetration is around 29.1”. WDMET (Wound Data and Munitions Effectiveness Team) collected extensive forensic data on over 700 7.62 x 39 mm gunshot wounds during the Viet Nam war. The predominant feature of this cartridge is the MINIMAL amount of damage it produces in soft tissue wounds, on par with FMJ handgun wounds such as those produced by 9 mm M882 ball. We also have extensive law enforcement data, as this cartridge has been used extensively in illicit activity. For example, in the 17 January 1988 Stockton school shooting, 30 of 35 kids who were shot lived. Of the five that died, all were shot in critical structure--head, heart, spine, aorta and none had damage to any organ not directly hit by a bullet.

However, not all 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ bullets are of the original steel core construction. Significantly increased tissue damage is produced by the early yaw seen with several 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ lead core bullets, including:

-- Yugoslavian M67 124 gr FMJ, flat based, copper-jacketed, lead core bullet which travels only 3.5" in tissue before yawing

-- Chinese (PRC) 7.62 x 39 mm 123 gr FMJ, copper-jacketed, lead core bullets which begin their yaw after only 2 to 2.5" of travel in tissue.

-- Czech and several types of Western commercially produced lead core 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ yaw within the first 2 to 3 inches of travel in tissue.
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Old 02-28-2010, 15:42   #3
banger
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Kalmah,

A pleasure to hear from someone who actually understands the performance of 7.62X39 ammo.

I too have studied ammo and its effect for a number of years. For what it's worth, you have stated my understanding of it's performance and it's limitations.

The only thing worth adding, would be that "steel core" ammo is NOT Armor Piercing. While it displays enhanced penetration, it does not perform as true A.P. against armored targets.


EDIT, B.T.W. back in the day, when steel core was the most common type of ammo found in 7.62X39, the Yugo M-67 flat base was THE AMMO to find due to it's superior performance. The Yugo was sold at a higher price despite being loaded with corrosive primers, due to this fact.

Last edited by banger; 02-28-2010 at 15:46..
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Old 02-28-2010, 18:06   #4
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EDIT, B.T.W. back in the day, when steel core was the most common type of ammo found in 7.62X39, the Yugo M-67 flat base was THE AMMO to find due to it's superior performance. The Yugo was sold at a higher price despite being loaded with corrosive primers, due to this fact.
A lot of Yugo M67 still out there. Numerous vendors have it now. The going rate seems to be around $250 for a case of 1260 rounds. Most even ship it in the sealed tin and wooden crate.
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Old 02-28-2010, 18:14   #5
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This Yugo stuff...is that the stuff that is in brass cases but it's not reloadable and everyone has it for cheap?

Any links to it if not?

Thanks!

-Emt1581
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Old 02-28-2010, 18:28   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
This Yugo stuff...is that the stuff that is in brass cases but it's not reloadable and everyone has it for cheap?

Any links to it if not?

Thanks!

-Emt1581
The Yugo M67 is brass cased, non-reloadable, and has corrosive primers. Lots of places have it.

http://gun-deals.com/ammo.php?caliber=7.62x39

Not everyone ships it in the sealed tin and wooden crate because that adds to the overall shipping cost. So if that's ammo you're interested in and if you want it in the tin and crate, be sure to check with the vendor before ordering to find out how they ship it.
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Old 02-28-2010, 18:39   #7
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Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
The Yugo M67 is brass cased, non-reloadable, and has corrosive primers. Lots of places have it.

http://gun-deals.com/ammo.php?caliber=7.62x39

Not everyone ships it in the sealed tin and wooden crate because that adds to the overall shipping cost. So if that's ammo you're interested in and if you want it in the tin and crate, be sure to check with the vendor before ordering to find out how they ship it.
And this stuff is steel core and performs significantly better than the Wolf FMJ/HP ammo?

I just don't understand what is so different about it.

I have a few thousand rounds of Wolf, but if this stuff would be MUCH better for defensive use, I'll get a tin of it.

Thanks!

-Emt1581
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Old 02-28-2010, 19:06   #8
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Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
And this stuff is steel core and performs significantly better than the Wolf FMJ/HP ammo?

I just don't understand what is so different about it.

I have a few thousand rounds of Wolf, but if this stuff would be MUCH better for defensive use, I'll get a tin of it.

Thanks!

-Emt1581
No, it's not steel core....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
However, not all 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ bullets are of the original steel core construction. Significantly increased tissue damage is produced by the early yaw seen with several 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ lead core bullets, including:

-- Yugoslavian M67 124 gr FMJ, flat based, copper-jacketed, lead core bullet which travels only 3.5" in tissue before yawing


And I don't know what you mean by significantly better.

It's a FMJ round that yaws in soft tissue, Wolf FMJ doesn't. If that's what you mean by better, then yes it's better than Wolf.

Does it perform better than Wolf through hard targets? I have no idea. I would imagine they're probably about the same.

Wolf Military Classic JHP fragments in soft targets, the M67 doesn't. So if you consider fragmentation to be better, then the M67 is not better than Wolf.
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Old 02-28-2010, 19:11   #9
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Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
No, it's not steel core....





And I don't know what you mean by significantly better.

It's a FMJ round that yaws in soft tissue, Wolf FMJ doesn't. If that's what you mean by better, then yes it's better than Wolf.

Does it perform better than Wolf through hard targets? I have no idea. I would imagine they're probably about the same.

Wolf Military Classic JHP fragments in soft targets, the M67 doesn't. So if you consider fragmentation to be better, then the M67 is not better than Wolf.

I have FMJ Millitary Classic and HP ammo. I'm looking for something that will have the best combination of penetration of hard targets and the best destruction against soft targets.

Thanks!

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Old 03-01-2010, 15:59   #10
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Anyone?

Thanks!

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Old 03-03-2010, 01:46   #11
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Ahhh the mythical do it all round, sadly it doesn't exist. I think the closest you'll come would be CorBon's DPX but who on earth can afford to stockpile that stuff? It's a solid copper bullet that penetrates very well yet expands in flesh, but at $40+ a box for 20rds. Naaaaah I'll keep my Wolf MC 124hp's and FMJ, the HP's fragment in flesh and the FMJ will punch anything I need to shoot. I've got some Norinco steel core but it's not used beacuse it's worth alot these days, my SHTF stash.
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Old 03-05-2010, 13:01   #12
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What about using steel core ammo in a pistol...isn't that federally banned?

Thanks!

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Old 03-05-2010, 14:57   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
What about using steel core ammo in a pistol...isn't that federally banned?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

That is the reason it became illegal to import.
Technically, it is not illegal to use the AP pistol ammo already in the country, but I wouldn't want to go to court on this issue.
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Old 03-08-2010, 20:21   #14
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Howdy,

I have several 1,000s rounds of Chinese steel core ammo. It really isn't AP but it will penetrate 3/8" steel plate at 2X's the distance that the lead core stuff will.

If you want penetration, use something bigger than the 7.62x39. But for SHTF in my AK-47 underfold I always carry a couple of mags of SC ammo.

Paul
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