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Old 02-22-2010, 11:56   #541
glock20c10mm
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Originally Posted by Dreamaster View Post
I think after talking to enough people with experience in the field and seeing a few gunshots (on video admittedly) I'm pretty convinced the part about a pressure wave killing instantly by "shocking" the brain or what not is indeed a myth, especially at handgun velocities.

However, I'm also nearly convinced that a bigger secondary cavity caused from the pressure wave can in some cases cause enough additional trauma to speed incapacitation. I've seen a video of a 30-06 rifle not only explode the ballistics gel into smithereens, but it also broke the table in half!

Borris once told me he didn't trust 115grain +p ammo, because he'd had problems with it reaching the CNS on some larger animals, yet at the same time he noted it had some very impressive entrance wounds. And that tells me the entire story right there... you simply MUST have good penetration, but if you can find a bullet that can give you both good penetration and explosive cavity wounds, go for it! That's why I think .357 does so well. It gets the penetration needed but has that extra edge of velocity to tear #$IT up on it's way in.

Just my humble opinion.
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Old 02-22-2010, 15:40   #542
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Since I just reposted a lot of the info we talked about days ago, and you had mentioned going through/over some of the numbers yourself to see how you thought they panned out, did that ever happen, and if it did, did you arrive at any conclusions or form any new opinions or maybe think about things in ways you hadn't thought of before? Or didn't you get the chance to dig into it yet? I've been quite curious to hear your thoughts.


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I don't really buy into TBI's causing incapacitation, however, I do think that TC is more important than Fackler's camp would propose. I have looked at a lot of stuff, and I think on a non-determined attacker, TC matters. Against a determined, 100% committed assailant, I think CNS disruption or 20% blood-volume loss, or blood-pressure loss, or oxygen deprivation (double pneumothorax, basically) are the only ways to get a stop.

To put it in perspective, I feel that a 9mm bullet at .6" diameter expanded is going to stop someone a lot more effectively than if I were to stab them with a .6" piece of re-bar. Both would be fatal (depending on location), but I do think the "shock" of the 1200fps projectile vs. the poke from my re-bar would matter. How much, I cannot say, but I cannot believe that TC is totally worthless after reviewing the evidence at hand.

NYPD has a damn lot of stories of the 9mm not putting the BG down too! I can't say definitively if this matters or not, because the report I read did not say where the assailant was hit, though, and obviously 10 shots to the thighs and buttocks is not going to kill unless the femoral is hit or something. You don't hear these stories about the 357SIG, and it's not like NYPD is using junk ammo in the 9. Just food for thought.

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Old 02-22-2010, 22:04   #543
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NYPD has a damn lot of stories of the 9mm not putting the BG down too!.....You don't hear these stories about the 357SIG, and it's not like NYPD is using junk ammo in the 9. Just food for thought.
Are there stats available on NYPD shootings?
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Old 02-22-2010, 22:33   #544
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Are there stats available on NYPD shootings?
Yes, I posted them in the "real shooting stories" or something thread in this forum.
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Old 02-22-2010, 23:10   #545
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Yes, I posted them in the "real shooting stories" or something thread in this forum.
Thanks. I didn't get a chance to read through it all yet. Hopefully tomorrow.
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Old 02-23-2010, 00:51   #546
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greyeyezz,

The charts I've seen I don't think show quite that much difference, but even so I can't say it matters much for a defensive handgun round. Hype more than anything. Anyone really capable of shooting something at 100 yards with the 357 Sig is just as capable with a 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP.

Same goes for the "better feeding" claim - more hype. A good gun will feed 9mm, 40, or 45 all day long - no problem.
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Old 02-23-2010, 05:09   #547
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greyeyezz,

The charts I've seen I don't think show quite that much difference, but even so I can't say it matters much for a defensive handgun round. Hype more than anything. Anyone really capable of shooting something at 100 yards with the 357 Sig is just as capable with a 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP.

Same goes for the "better feeding" claim - more hype. A good gun will feed 9mm, 40, or 45 all day long - no problem.

Have you done much comparitive shooting at 100 yards? It is much easier to hit something with a 357 sig than a 40 or 45. Maybe if the yardage is known and you have your 40 and 45 dialed in. In my reloading, I have been able to get significant greater accuracy from the 357 sig than the 40, which makes a difference at 100 yards. A 45 has such a rainbow curve, you almost have to have it dailed in at the exact yardage. You can pick up your carry 357 sig and have pretty good luck at hitting and 8" plate at around 100, but not so with the 45.
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Old 02-23-2010, 23:17   #548
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Originally Posted by SDDL-UP View Post
The charts I've seen I don't think show quite that much difference, but even so I can't say it matters much for a defensive handgun round.
Federal's web site comparison chart shows the .357sig having the same ft. lbs. energy at 100 yards as their 9mm does at the muzzle. I'd have to say even though power isn't the be-all-end-all of successful self-defense it is noteworthy.

The chart also shows .357sig loses about half the accuracy over 100 yards as the 9mm. I doubt many self-defense situations occur at that distance but there it is nevertheless. I do know that I can accurately hit targets much further out with my .357sig than I can with my 9mm; both pistols having a 4" barrel.
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Old 02-23-2010, 23:51   #549
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Federal's web site comparison chart shows the .357sig having the same ft. lbs. energy at 100 yards as their 9mm does at the muzzle. I'd have to say even though power isn't the be-all-end-all of successful self-defense it is noteworthy.

The chart also shows .357sig loses about half the accuracy over 100 yards as the 9mm. I doubt many self-defense situations occur at that distance but there it is nevertheless. I do know that I can accurately hit targets much further out with my .357sig than I can with my 9mm; both pistols having a 4" barrel.

I think someone with a P210 would beg to differ with that chart.
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Old 02-27-2010, 03:07   #550
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I'm not going to argue with anyone's personal experience... it is what it is.

Does the 357 Sig offer advantages over a 9mm +p+? Yes. More velocity and greater energy.

Does the 9mm +P+ offer advantages over the 357 Sig? Yes. More capacity and less recoil.

The 357 Sig is a perfectly capable round - no doubt about it! My concern is when people act like since they are armed with a 357 Sig that they are carrying an "instant death ray", hence the name of this thread.... "357 Sig proving to be an unbelieveable manstopper". Sorry but the 357 Sig is not an "unbelieveable manstopper". A perfectly capable manstopper? Yes! Does it have advantages over other calibers? Yes! Does it have disadvantages to other calibers? Yes!

It is my opinion that a 38 Super would be a better choice for a defensive round because you don't loose any capacity over a 9mm.
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Old 02-27-2010, 03:44   #551
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I'm not going to argue with anyone's personal experience... it is what it is.

Does the 357 Sig offer advantages over a 9mm +p+? Yes. More velocity and greater energy.

Does the 9mm +P+ offer advantages over the 357 Sig? Yes. More capacity and less recoil.

The 357 Sig is a perfectly capable round - no doubt about it! My concern is when people act like since they are armed with a 357 Sig that they are carrying an "instant death ray", hence the name of this thread.... "357 Sig proving to be an unbelieveable manstopper". Sorry but the 357 Sig is not an "unbelieveable manstopper". A perfectly capable manstopper? Yes! Does it have advantages over other calibers? Yes! Does it have disadvantages to other calibers? Yes!

It is my opinion that a 38 Super would be a better choice for a defensive round because you don't loose any capacity over a 9mm.
The .38 Super is 1.280" in OAL, while the 357SIG is 1.140" in OAL. The 10mm is 1.260" in OAL, and the .45ACP is also 1.260" OAL.

The 9mm you compare the .38 Super to with regards to capacity is 1.169" OAL. The .45 GAP is the answer to the desire for a smaller-frame than the .45 ACP. If the .45 ACP is .02" OAL SHORTER than the .38 Super and it still prompted a manufacturer to design an entirely new pistol and caliber to reduce grip-size relative to OAL of the cartridge, how popular do you think the 38 Super is going to be in a double-stack magazine configuration? I will give up 2-3 rounds capacity for the sake of having a more ergonomic grip.
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Old 02-28-2010, 16:35   #552
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Sorry but the 357 Sig is not an "unbelieveable manstopper". A perfectly capable manstopper?
What if we took out the term unbelievable, as it is a very strong word, and changed it to better. Does your view change then?
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Old 02-28-2010, 16:38   #553
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My concern is when people act like since they are armed with a 357 Sig that they are carrying an "instant death ray".....
No, most people know the 10mm Auto is the equivelant to the "instant death ray". 357SIG can't touch it.
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Old 02-28-2010, 19:37   #554
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What if we took out the term unbelievable, as it is a very strong word, and changed it to better. Does your view change then?
Actually, I would prefer removing the term "manstopper", as when you say it a few times in a row, it just sounds/feels awkward. Kindof like "manhole cover".

It is also politically incorrect from a sex standpoint. Further, many dogs and other animals are shot with service calibers as well.

I think the statement could have been changed to "Is the 357SIG showing itself to be especially capable of negatively affecting a target to produce a cessation of activity on the part of the shootee?"

Then again, screw it. We know darn well what was meant by the title, even if there was a little hyperbole.
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Old 03-01-2010, 00:42   #555
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Well, I have come to a conclusion in this matter.

The 9mm and the 357SIG, when loaded with Gold-Dots of optimal weight for caliber, crush almost the same amount of tissue. They should offer identical performance.
Caliber Corner

They don't.

The people who I have communicated with who have first-hand experience with agencies that use the 357SIG has reported that it is more effective than what they transitioned from. Especially stated, was about the TX DPS, who switched from the 9mm, and the .45. The shots-per-stop required were reported to have decreased across the board compared to .45 and 9mm. The agency is quite pleased with the round. This information comes from Todd Green and was posted publically on another forum.

His account mirrors that of others whos accounts I have either solicited or read, who directely interact with agencies issuing this caliber.

In my unprofessional opinion, the 357SIG is superior to other calibers in "it's league".

Does it cause TBI? Does it create a pulsitile wave-form? Will being hit in the hand with it cause premature erectile disfunction? I don't know the answers, and to be honest, beyond the academics, I really don't care. I believe the round to be superior in its on-target effect, and the dynamics of that superiority don't change the results one bit.

*one of the main arguments against the experience of TX DPS is that better training could have resulted in better shot-placement. There is no proof this occured, and further, it deflates the argument (and I do believe this is fact) that the 357SIG is harder to control (fire rapidly and accurately) than the 9mm and according to some, the .45.

Anyways, for me, the case is closed. I am happy with my choice, I base this happiness on facts and experience garnered from qualified individuals, and the rest is just details until new information exists.

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Old 03-01-2010, 01:15   #556
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Originally Posted by N/Apower View Post
Well, I have come to a conclusion in this matter.

The 9mm and the 357SIG, when loaded with Gold-Dots of optimal weight for caliber, crush almost the same amount of tissue. They should offer identical performance.
Caliber Corner

They don't.

The people who I have communicated with who have first-hand experience with agencies that use the 357SIG has reported that it is more effective than what they transitioned from. Especially stated, was about the TX DPS, who switched from the 9mm, and the .45. The shots-per-stop required were reported to have decreased across the board compared to .45 and 9mm. The agency is quite pleased with the round. This information comes from Todd Green and was posted publically on another forum.

His account mirrors that of others whos accounts I have either solicited or read, who directely interact with agencies issuing this caliber.

In my unprofessional opinion, the 357SIG is superior to other calibers in "it's league".

Does it cause TBI? Does it create a pulsitile wave-form? Will being hit in the hand with it cause premature erectile disfunction? I don't know the answers, and to be honest, beyond the academics, I really don't care. I believe the round to be superior in its on-target effect, and the dynamics of that superiority don't change the results one bit.

*one of the main arguments against the experience of TX DPS is that better training could have resulted in better shot-placement. There is no proof this occured, and further, it deflates the argument (and I do believe this is fact) that the 357SIG is harder to control (fire rapidly and accurately) than the 9mm and according to some, the .45.

Anyways, for me, the case is closed. I am happy with my choice, I base this happiness on facts and experience garnered from qualified individuals, and the rest is just details until new information exists.
I can make unspecific statements about the performance of any caliber. Show us the data from Texas DPS. Who did you talk to? how many shootings? what were the circumstances? Sorry war stories passed among friends at a poker game do nothing for me.
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:51   #557
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I can make unspecific statements about the performance of any caliber. Show us the data from Texas DPS. Who did you talk to? how many shootings? what were the circumstances? Sorry war stories passed among friends at a poker game do nothing for me.
Pat
Todd Green. You know him as "ToddG". Shoot him a PM, he can tell you what all he knows better than I can.


Aside from that, many agencies have used the caliber for a good while. Long enough to have gone through at least 1 "replacement of platform" during which they could have dumped it in favor of their former caliber, I would think. (FAMs is one example who changed entire platforms but kept the caliber). They are sticking with the caliber--even though it is blasty, has increased wear over 9mm, and is more expensive.

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Old 03-01-2010, 07:01   #558
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Actually, I would prefer removing the term "manstopper", as when you say it a few times in a row, it just sounds/feels awkward. Kindof like "manhole cover".
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:29   #559
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The Texas DPS story that I've read was that a veteran LEO was using a 45 auto whereas a rookie LEO was using a 357SIG in a shooting involving a tractor trailer. The 45 auto didn't penetrate the cab glass but the 357SIG did and stopped the rouge driver. That incident, and other similar auto body penetration incidents, compelled DPS to look hard at adapting the 357SIG for its auto body penetration effects, which it subsequently did.
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Old 03-01-2010, 15:49   #560
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The Texas DPS story that I've read was that a veteran LEO was using a 45 auto whereas a rookie LEO was using a 357SIG in a shooting involving a tractor trailer. The 45 auto didn't penetrate the cab glass but the 357SIG did and stopped the rouge driver. That incident, and other similar auto body penetration incidents, compelled DPS to look hard at adapting the 357SIG for its auto body penetration effects, which it subsequently did.
I am referring to what the TX DPS conveyed to SIG about their over-all satisfaction with the 357SIG after an analysis of their OIS's indicated that it performed superior to the 9mm and .45 with regards to shots required to stop criminal activity. Not an isolated incident.

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