GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-06-2010, 00:18   #51
Alaskapopo
NRA ENDOWMENT
 
Alaskapopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 16,457


Quote:
Originally Posted by my762buzz View Post
Pat will not believe that because he can't seem to hold a sub 6 MOA group with his Saiga therefore no one else can possibly do better.
I don't believe you because you post ignorant flaming posts stuff like you just did (out right lie) and you have not lived up to your promises to show proof. You just provide excuses. We are never going to see proof of you shooting 5 shot sub moa groups. If you could we would have seen proof by now. I show my range reports. You don't. If you feel you are a better shooter than me. Come on down to the Larue three gun match in Texas in May. There are still some slots open. Bring that Vepr.
Pat
__________________
Colt M16/AR15/ 1911 & Glock Armorer.
Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.
Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
NRA Endowment Member
USPSA B class

Last edited by Alaskapopo; 02-06-2010 at 00:21..
Alaskapopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 00:38   #52
JBJ16
Senior Member
 
JBJ16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: YOUR BLINDSIDE
Posts: 740
. . . . . and after 40+ years with all the best scientific minds, research facilities, several wars as an actual laboratory, the overall viability of the AR platform is upheld by the best authority the US Armed Forces and DoD. This, my friends, is the best endorsement and answer to the OP's orig. question. . . . not someone else's conjecture or sea story.

. . . or would you rather the endorsement of ragtag guerrilla organizations worldwide? it's up to the individual because when SHTF its your ***** on the line anyway.
__________________
"No problem on earth can't be solved by the judicious application of high explosives" - from Valkyrie

Last edited by JBJ16; 02-06-2010 at 00:46..
JBJ16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 01:07   #53
Alaskapopo
NRA ENDOWMENT
 
Alaskapopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 16,457


Like I have said before. Both the Ak and the Ar are good viable weapon systems. The edge does go to the Ar however.
Pat
__________________
Colt M16/AR15/ 1911 & Glock Armorer.
Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.
Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
NRA Endowment Member
USPSA B class
Alaskapopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 01:12   #54
JBJ16
Senior Member
 
JBJ16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: YOUR BLINDSIDE
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosC View Post
Finally, if this was such an Achilles Heel, why would the basic design not change in 63 years? And don't forget the Israelis, who did their share of fighting in the desert, decided to copy quite a bit of the AK's design when they made the Galil.
Yes they decided to copy the system into the Galil, but guess what, the most experienced desert warriors are , up to now issued and carries the M16 platform in its various iterations.

http://www.pbase.com/yalop/army
http://www.pbase.com/yalop/army
http://www.pbase.com/yalop/army&page=2
http://www.pbase.com/yalop/army&page=2
__________________
"No problem on earth can't be solved by the judicious application of high explosives" - from Valkyrie

Last edited by JBJ16; 02-06-2010 at 01:17..
JBJ16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 04:58   #55
Young Once
Senior Member
 
Young Once's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
Posts: 636
AK for me
Young Once is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 05:54   #56
Teej
Senior Member
 
Teej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,945
Maybe you M4 guys should read this?


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...roversy-03289/


For most SHTF situations, this may not apply and the AR, M16, M4 would do just fine. But for overall performance, definitely something to think about.

Also, in a SHTF situation, do you think protecting yourselves and loved ones, neighborhoods would have many 500-600 yrd shots? AK for me and I don't even have mine yet.
Teej is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 07:04   #57
my762buzz
Senior Member
 
my762buzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
I don't believe you because you post ignorant flaming posts stuff like you just did (out right lie) and you have not lived up to your promises to show proof. You just provide excuses. We are never going to see proof of you shooting 5 shot sub moa groups. If you could we would have seen proof by now. I show my range reports. You don't. If you feel you are a better shooter than me. Come on down to the Larue three gun match in Texas in May. There are still some slots open. Bring that Vepr.
Pat
I said 1 MOA. Don't start egg-zaggerating Pat
By the way, some of us don't live in the sticks in Alaska and don't have
unlimited time to run off to a range.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...091667&page=14
Quote:
Originally Posted by my762buzz View Post
I have shot 1 MOA with American Eagle 7.62x39 at 100 yards
in one of my AK rifles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
I find MOA claims from an AK or SKS similar to fish stories. Pat
I still have not seen you provide proof that your trainer buddy
has 40,000 rounds through his AR15 without cleaning/
Come on Pat, we don't need exuses or internet myth we need hard proof.
I am working on getting a video on my part as I showed you.
Why can't you come up with solid proof about 40,000 rounds without cleaning his AR15.
my762buzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 07:37   #58
my762buzz
Senior Member
 
my762buzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBJ16 View Post
. . . . . and after 40+ years with all the best scientific minds, research facilities, several wars as an actual laboratory, the overall viability of the AR platform is upheld by the best authority the US Armed Forces and DoD. This, my friends, is the best endorsement and answer to the OP's orig. question. . . . not someone else's conjecture or sea story.

. . . or would you rather the endorsement of ragtag guerrilla organizations worldwide? it's up to the individual because when SHTF its your ***** on the line anyway.
If the DOD was perfectly happy and could not possibly want a better alternative, why does the DOD hold trials every so often with competing platforms. There are better options but its all about $. It costs more to change than to stay essentially the same. Gov systems tend to externally change only when they absolutively have to, unless they are forced by radicalized internal change (progressive) like what has been going on politically with the current white house. Not to get politics in this, but it does play a big factor in what government systems adopt as weapon systems.
Hugo Chavez forcing the adoptation of the Russian AK103 was an example of this. SOD McNamara pushing the AR15 into the DOD is another. The fact that Beretta was adopted by the DOD for a pistol was more political than absolutely necessary. Sig arms or HK could have served nearly the same.
Carlos did hit on a very good point earlier. The fact that Israel with all of its
support from its friend the USA chose to even consider using AK derived design concepts in the galil says something.
my762buzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 07:52   #59
my762buzz
Senior Member
 
my762buzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Maybe you M4 guys should read this?


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...roversy-03289/


For most SHTF situations, this may not apply and the AR, M16, M4 would do just fine. But for overall performance, definitely something to think about.

Also, in a SHTF situation, do you think protecting yourselves and loved ones, neighborhoods would have many 500-600 yrd shots? AK for me and I don't even have mine yet.
Interesting lets compare an old news article graphic from the Vietnam era to
this.

The Kalashnikov Klub



Quote:
According to briefing documents obtained by Gannett’s Army Times magazine:

“USMC officials said the M4 malfunctioned three times more often than the M16A4 during an assessment conducted in late summer 2002 for Marine Corps Systems Command at Quantico, VA. Malfunctions were broken down into several categories, including “magazine,” “failure to chamber,” “failure to fire,” “failure to extract” and “worn or broken part,” according to the briefing documents. During the comparison, the M4 failed 186 times across those categories over the course of 69,000 rounds fired. The M16A4 failed 61 times during the testing.

The Army conducted a more recent reliability test between October 2005 and April 2006, which included 10 new M16s and 10 new M4s…. On average, the new M16s and M4s fired approximately 5,000 rounds between stoppages, according to an Army official who asked that his name not be released.”


They have worked quite a few bugs out since the 1960s but its there are still quite a few complaints.
my762buzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 07:59   #60
JBJ16
Senior Member
 
JBJ16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: YOUR BLINDSIDE
Posts: 740
. . . . but it is still difficult to swallow (the Koolaide) that the AK will fail and the AR will not when dirt is shoveled on top of both weapons in a ready state condition Like the OP asked SHTF AK or AR? Who knows? In that test those 2 guys had practically SHTF on their personal weapons. S**T happens both ways, anyways. . . .to each his own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRwx4wtmms
for late posters, view this one more time
__________________
"No problem on earth can't be solved by the judicious application of high explosives" - from Valkyrie
JBJ16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 08:10   #61
CarlosC
I love guns!
 
CarlosC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: TX
Posts: 4,186
Have you guys read the link from Teej?? Here are some excerpts...

"The M4 and 3 competitors, including one M4 variant that can be converted from existing rifles, come out of a sandstorm reliability test – and the M4 finishes dead last, with more than 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher."

"After Action Reviews done by the Marines after the early phases of Operation Iraqi Freedom revealed that urban warfare scenarios made employment of the M16A2 difficult in some situations; Marines were picking up short AK-47s with collapsible butt-stocks, or scrounging pistols for use inside buildings."

"Failure to maintain the weapon meticulously can lead to jams, especially in sandy or dusty environments. Kalashnikovs may not have a reputation for accuracy, or lightness – but they do have a well-earned reputation for being able to take amazing amounts of abuse, without maintenance, and still fire reliably. The Israeli “Galil” applied these lessons in 5.56mm caliber, and earned a similar reputation. Colt’s M16 and M4 have never done so."

“USMC officials said the M4 malfunctioned three times more often than the M16A4 during an assessment conducted in late summer 2002 for Marine Corps Systems Command at Quantico, VA. Malfunctions were broken down into several categories, including “magazine,” “failure to chamber,” “failure to fire,” “failure to extract” and “worn or broken part,” according to the briefing documents. During the comparison, the M4 failed 186 times across those categories over the course of 69,000 rounds fired. The M16A4 failed 61 times during the testing."

"Soldiers had their own comments, however, which were also included in the report and relayed in the magazine article:

3rd ID soldier: “I know it fires very well and accurate [when] clean. But sometimes it needs to fire dirty well too.”

25th Infantry Division soldier: “The M4 Weapon in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan was quick to malfunction when a little sand got in the weapon. Trying to keep it clean, sand free was impossible while on patrols or firefights.”

82nd Airborne Division soldier: “The M4 is overall an excellent weapon, however the flaw of its sensitivity to dirt and powder residue needs to be corrected. True to fact, cleaning will help. Daily assigned tasks, and nonregular hours in tactical situations do not always warrant the necessary time required for effective cleaning.”

75th Ranger Regiment member, SOCOM: “Even with the dust cover closed and magazine in the well, sand gets all inside; on and around the bolt. It still fires, but after a while the sand works its way all through the gun and jams start.”

"A December 2006 survey, conducted on behalf of the Army by CNA Corp., conducted over 2,600 interviews with Soldiers returning from combat duty. The M4 received a number of strong requests from M-16 users, who liked its smaller profile. Among M4 users, however, 19% of said they experienced stoppages in combat – and almost 20% of those said they were “unable to engage the target with that weapon during a significant portion of or the entire firefight after performing immediate or remedial action to clear the stoppage.” The report adds that “Those who attached accessories to their weapon were more likely to experience stoppages, regardless of how the accessories were attached [including via official means like rail mounts].” Since “accessories” can include items like night sights, flashlights, et. al., their use is not expected to go away any time soon."
__________________
Pittsburgh Steelers fan till the day I die, and then some.
CarlosC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 08:16   #62
Joshhtn
Rastaman!
 
Joshhtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 6,117


Quote:
Originally Posted by JBJ16 View Post
. . . . but it is still difficult to swallow (the Koolaide) that the AK will fail and the AR will not when dirt is shoveled on top of both weapons in a ready state condition Like the OP asked SHTF AK or AR? Who knows? In that test those 2 guys had practically SHTF on their personal weapons. S**T happens both ways, anyways. . . .to each his own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRwx4wtmms
for late posters, view this one more time

I love how you keep referencing this one video... 1 video means NOTHING!... A Honda is known to be a reliable car, but I guarantee I can find a video of one not starting.
__________________
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
***CHECK OUT MY EBAY STORE FOR EVERYTHING YOU NEED-***
HEINRICH TREASURES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric View Post
Dude, you are ****ing banned.
Joshhtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 08:20   #63
JBJ16
Senior Member
 
JBJ16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: YOUR BLINDSIDE
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshhtn View Post
I love how you keep referencing this one video... 1 video means NOTHING!... A Honda is known to be a reliable car, but I guarantee I can find a video of one not starting.
Well it is just a good feeling to have love, love , love isn't it

That video shows only what it shows:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRwx4wtmms

the AR will fully function while the AK will fail, after shoveling dirt on top of both while in the ready state right-side up

seems like a fair assessment isn't it.
__________________
"No problem on earth can't be solved by the judicious application of high explosives" - from Valkyrie
JBJ16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 08:26   #64
JBJ16
Senior Member
 
JBJ16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: YOUR BLINDSIDE
Posts: 740
Well I may have ruffled some feathers being this an AK forum and all

I offer my apologies with this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QbZWg4lRkg&feature=fvw
__________________
"No problem on earth can't be solved by the judicious application of high explosives" - from Valkyrie
JBJ16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 09:31   #65
my762buzz
Senior Member
 
my762buzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBJ16 View Post
Well I may have ruffled some feathers being this an AK forum and all

I offer my apologies with this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QbZWg4lRkg&feature=fvw
No feathers ruffled.
You just reminded me why the AR15 platform is more prone to failure by dusty conditions and thats why it absolutely needs to have a sealed ejection port area. A little dust that actually gets inside and the fat lady sings at the ball game. My active duty marine brother in law has also reminded me that his experiences with M16s in dusty conditions was less than favorable.
The need to keep a weapon clean and wet in a desert becomes a liability.
Say what you want but for a shtf platform not needing to keep things sterile and lubed to absolutely work reliably is an asset for surviving. You might not always have access to supplies to keep it going reliably. Take hurricane katrina for example. If you were trying to leave that hell hole with an AR15 and accidently dropped it in the sewage most everyone was walking through, crap is likely to seep into the action. At that point, its not going to matter if you can't engage armed bad guys at 1000 yards because your Ar15 might not even cycle at all. It would really suck to die because you don't have time
to clean your weapon 5 times a day. No thanks. If I absolutely got to shoot something 600 to 800 yards away, I am grabbing my bolt rifle in a much more terminally effective caliber which is far more accurate than most AR15s anyhow. Who exactly wants to argue bolt guns are inherently less accurate that AR15s?
my762buzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 11:11   #66
Nestor
Lean & Mean
 
Nestor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: From Canada with love!
Posts: 20,970


Quote:
Originally Posted by JBJ16 View Post
. . . . but it is still difficult to swallow (the Koolaide) that the AK will fail and the AR will not when dirt is shoveled on top of both weapons in a ready state condition Like the OP asked SHTF AK or AR? Who knows? In that test those 2 guys had practically SHTF on their personal weapons. S**T happens both ways, anyways. . . .to each his own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRwx4wtmms
for late posters, view this one more time
That's why I went with CZ vz.58
No such problem as the safety works different way.
__________________
One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching.

R.I.P Jeff (23Skidoo), Chad (CJLandry) & Mark (Okie) You all will be missed.
Nestor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 11:57   #67
JBJ16
Senior Member
 
JBJ16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: YOUR BLINDSIDE
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor View Post
That's why I went with CZ vz.58
No such problem as the safety works different way.
A ha . . .an enlightened one. Good for you!

But we sure have to give credit to the AK design. Simple, robust, reliable blaster. . . just like any other long serving military rifle I want one despite that Youtube video. I already have a fullauto M4gery.
__________________
"No problem on earth can't be solved by the judicious application of high explosives" - from Valkyrie
JBJ16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 17:08   #68
Nestor
Lean & Mean
 
Nestor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: From Canada with love!
Posts: 20,970


Quote:
Originally Posted by JBJ16 View Post
A ha . . .an enlightened one. Good for you!

But we sure have to give credit to the AK design. Simple, robust, reliable blaster. . . just like any other long serving military rifle I want one despite that Youtube video. I already have a fullauto M4gery.
You won't be disappointed.
I'm pretty sure about it.
I'm just one of the few members on this board that have a service related experience with this platform, but in the long run it doesn't mean much.
__________________
One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching.

R.I.P Jeff (23Skidoo), Chad (CJLandry) & Mark (Okie) You all will be missed.
Nestor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 19:13   #69
riddleofsteel
Pulpa est valeo
 
riddleofsteel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: above ground
Posts: 905
Send a message via Yahoo to riddleofsteel
I think a better topic may have been; "What rifle for a SHTF situation?"

Neither the AK nor the AR is the first or last word in battle rifles.

Given the current info and experience available we could make an argument for a variety of fine rifles. The AR and the AK may be near the top of the list due to the availability of parts, ammo, magazines ect.

However, until not long ago the price of the weapon, parts, mags and ammo figured heavy into my stockpile choices. That is why SKS and AK guns and ammo populate my stash of SHTF weapons.

Truth is in the kind of senerio you are the implying the AK SKS family would do very nicely.
__________________
...But always there remained the discipline of steel...

They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.
Song of Solomon 3:8

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."
riddleofsteel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 21:12   #70
AnimalK
Kilted Muppet
 
AnimalK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Behind Something Bulletproof
Posts: 9,984
The AR is like a prom queen.
The AK is like a biker chick.
Treat each accordingly.
__________________
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
"Dolor Temporarius, Gloria Aeterna, Cicatrices Virginibus Placent."
Some kids tinkle their name in the snow. Chuck Norris can tinkle his name into concrete.
"No one wants the finger of an 300 lb Samoan in their a**, for medical reasons or not."--KilgoreTrout
AnimalK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 21:24   #71
my762buzz
Senior Member
 
my762buzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBJ16 View Post
Well I may have ruffled some feathers being this an AK forum and all

I offer my apologies with this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QbZWg4lRkg&feature=fvw
I got a good video too.


Try doing this with an AR15. @ 1min 50 seconds in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4v9E...layer_embedded
my762buzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 22:32   #72
adamg01
Senior Member
 
adamg01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: va
Posts: 3,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by my762buzz View Post
I said 1 MOA. Don't start egg-zaggerating Pat
By the way, some of us don't live in the sticks in Alaska and don't have
unlimited time to run off to a range.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...091667&page=14



I still have not seen you provide proof that your trainer buddy
has 40,000 rounds through his AR15 without cleaning/
Come on Pat, we don't need exuses or internet myth we need hard proof.
I am working on getting a video on my part as I showed you.
Why can't you come up with solid proof about 40,000 rounds without cleaning his AR15.
I am going to chime in and I am not even sure what is going on really. 40,000 through an AR without cleaning.....BS!
adamg01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 01:17   #73
extremus
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: KCMO
Posts: 28
This is a trick question, right?

The correct answer is you use the one you train with. If you train with an AK, you use an AK. Ditto AR.

Probably not one person in 5000 has the time, money or an occupation that would allow them to become proficient enough to trust their lives to more than one platform.

Find what works for you and train with it as much as you can. I want something that works and that I can shoot well. I'll occasionally take a wheel gun or my Garand to the range, but I shoot and train with an AK, a Mossberg and a G19.
extremus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 01:25   #74
hank327
Senior Member
 
hank327's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 198
Here's a video showing that the AK isn't completely useless at over 200 yards.

http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45#p/u/20/kwMmhSWRu3Q

Personally, I'll take an AK over an AR for a SHTF situation. I carried an M16 for most of my four years as an infantryman and I was less than impressed with its reliability. I'll take a rifle with acceptable accuracy that I can count on to go bang over a tack driver that may or may not fire when I most need it to.
I'm not very concerned of my AK's accuracy or inaccuracy at 600 yards. In my area you would seldom get to see a target at 200 yards much less 600.
hank327 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 08:49   #75
Joshhtn
Rastaman!
 
Joshhtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 6,117


Quote:
Originally Posted by my762buzz View Post
I got a good video too.


Try doing this with an AR15. @ 1min 50 seconds in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4v9E...layer_embedded

Fantastic video!... I would love to see that happen with an AR15!
__________________
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
***CHECK OUT MY EBAY STORE FOR EVERYTHING YOU NEED-***
HEINRICH TREASURES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric View Post
Dude, you are ****ing banned.
Joshhtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:50.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,115
353 Members
762 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42