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Old 08-26-2013, 14:34   #1
ronin.45
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Scoring delay?

I'm wondering why scores take so long to finalize. If prelim scores can be up in 24 hours, why is it a month before they are finalized? I realize that there is a ton of info to compile, but the majority of the work is already done after the prelims are figured.
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Old 08-26-2013, 14:49   #2
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The delay gives everyone a chance to contest any mistakes that were made when inputting their scores.
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Old 08-26-2013, 14:53   #3
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I could see that accounting for a few days at most.
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Old 08-26-2013, 15:09   #4
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GSSF has a 30 day period to resolve any scoring issues. Some issues are not easily resolved. Not every competitor is on the computer every day. You must learn to be patient. In 1999 it took 90+ days.
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Old 08-26-2013, 15:27   #5
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I'll admit that patience is not my strong suit. It's one of the reasons I rarely shoot USPSA. The ridiculous scoring takes too long to post.
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Old 08-26-2013, 16:02   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
I'll admit that patience is not my strong suit. It's one of the reasons I rarely shoot USPSA. The ridiculous scoring takes too long to post.
Yea, we all want Instant Gradification(IG). 30 days is IG to us and we bear with GSSF because we know they have a life too without us.
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Old 08-26-2013, 16:12   #7
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I'll admit that patience is not my strong suit. It's one of the reasons I rarely shoot USPSA. The ridiculous scoring takes too long to post.
I've shot USPSA at 5 different ranges in the greater Charlotte area. Some have them up the same day, at the worst usually the next day. Major matches are a day or two.

That's reasonable to me.
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Old 08-27-2013, 05:03   #8
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I'll admit that patience is not my strong suit. It's one of the reasons I rarely shoot USPSA. The ridiculous scoring takes too long to post.
This venue teaches us to slow down and not rush, Must be slow to be accurate to avoid penalties,yet fast enough to keep the times low,

This entire venue is all about waiting

We have to wait for the event,then wait for our credit card to be charged the Wednesday before the event,waiting to pick up our stickers,waiting to get on the sign in sheet,waiting to give in your stickers,waiting to get on the tree,waiting on deck,waiting for the pre lims,waiting on the finals,waiting on the certificate or the prize, waiting for the next event again,

I would say to anybody who doesnt have the ability to wait for things and need to be gratified instantly ,this may not be a good venue for you.

the shooting part of this venue as we know if all goes well should only be a couple of seconds.

This venue is all about waiting

All that being said . I absolutely love and enjoy every bit of the venue except all the grumblings of the people who don't realize waiting is a large part of this venue.

I also think the journey to a destination most of the time is far better then the destination it self, that being said I actually enjoy the days and weeks after an event daydreaming and thinking about what gun I am going to purchase when I win a random gun certificate, it helps me pass the time while waiting for the next event in my area,like buying a lotto ticket its so much fun thinking about what you may win, once the result post you cant day dream about it anymore

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Old 08-27-2013, 05:39   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
I'll admit that patience is not my strong suit. It's one of the reasons I rarely shoot USPSA. The ridiculous scoring takes too long to post.
At most of the clubs in my area, results are up on the same day. The club I do scores at is moving to electronic scoring, and preliminary testing indicates that we'll be able to have scores within 5-10 minutes of last shot fired.
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Old 08-27-2013, 17:54   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
I'll admit that patience is not my strong suit. It's one of the reasons I rarely shoot USPSA. The ridiculous scoring takes too long to post.
You better say a little prayer that you don't win a gun!

First, you wait for the certificate, then you wait, wait, wait for the gun.

Your head will implode and you will never get to enjoy your free Glock



It is nothing like waiting for Christmas when you were 6.
Its more like waiting for your tax refund when you are 76.



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Old 08-27-2013, 08:43   #11
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I further appreciate the emphasis on accuracy as only hits count - many shooters obsession with speed often results in very sloppy shooting
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:42   #12
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Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
I'm wondering why scores take so long to finalize. If prelim scores can be up in 24 hours, why is it a month before they are finalized? I realize that there is a ton of info to compile, but the majority of the work is already done after the prelims are figured.
I have seen cases where a shooter was listed in the wrong division and it changed who won guns, after he saw the prelims and notified GSSF. It's worth the time to get it right.
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Old 08-27-2013, 15:56   #13
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Everyone makes mistakes, no reason to rush to set them in stone. After a couple of weeks of no one raising issues then it seems reasonable to lock it in and if someone finds something later, well, they had ample opportunity to pull their crumpled score sheets out of the range bag and check them.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:39   #14
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Everyone makes mistakes, no reason to rush to set them in stone. After a couple of weeks of no one raising issues then it seems reasonable to lock it in and if someone finds something later, well, they had ample opportunity to pull their crumpled score sheets out of the range bag and check them.
The staff gets the prelims up pretty quickly, so getting the scores input doesn't appear to be the issue. It's the 30 day protest window. The staff gets all the work done, then it sits for month waiting for corrections.

The above seems like a pretty reasonable suggestion. 2 weeks as a protest period, then finalize them. It's no more work for the staff, no extra cost for tablets and such.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:42   #15
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GSSF staffers have to attend each and every match.

They can only do finals when they are actually in the office.

They typically travel to a match on a Thursday or Friday, do the match Saturday/Sunday, and travel back on Monday.

Which typically leaves them Tuesday & Wednesday to do "office stuff" which not only includes doing final results and awards, but gathering and shipping the match stuff necessary for the match they are doing two weeks out.

"Oh, sorry, the targets/scoresheets/pasters/timers did not get here in time for this match because two weeks ago, I took 2 days to get out the awards from the XYZ match that happened 3 weeks ago. Sorry, you 200 people with guns who showed up here today, expecting a match, but I am afraid you are just going to have to turn around and go home. However, I am sure you will be happy to know that the participants of the XYZ match DID get their awards, and are happy at your sacrifice. "

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

And this time of year, full-time GSSF staffers are doing 2, sometimes three, weekends PER MONTH.

It is not a question of how "slow" they are in getting finals and awards out.

It is a miracle that they get them out as FAST as they ARE.

So quit your whining, and stop biting the hand that feeds you.
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Old 08-28-2013, 20:34   #16
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10 years ago, as Danny said, it took way longer. At least we generally have preliminary results within about a week of the match now. Back when I first got started >10 years ago, some of us were pretty vocal about how moving to some kind of scanned bubble sheets would speed up the data entry. Obviously, that never happened. It just occurred to me though, with the leaps technology has made in that time, how far off might we be from the following setup:

At registration, they print and hand you a single "card" per entry with a 2-D bar code and the human readable text for your name/entry number/division. At each stage, the scorer has a tablet (ipad, android, whatever). They scan your code card, the tablet brings up a representation of a score sheet with your name and entry # on it. As you shoot, your times are recorded in the app. When finished, your scores are entered. Once approved (by scanning your card again), the score is uploaded to "the server" and maybe emailed to the competitor. At the end of the match, GSSF snags a CSV dump from the server, imports it into their spreadsheet software, does whatever calculating they need to do, and export a PDF.

The technology for that is all here today. The only things stopping that from being a reality are the cost of the hardware, programming, and IT personnel it'd take to make it happen. With that, you could have preliminary results as soon as the match is over (actually, preliminary results could be viewable in real time as the match progresses and the whole data to PDF part could actually be automated or skipped in favor of html generated from data in the scores db).

I suspect they'd need enough spare tablets to swap them out at least once during the day for battery charging. It'd probably be a few grand each in hardware and software, and they'd need either internet or a local WIFI network setup at each match.

It's something to dream about at least.
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Old 08-28-2013, 21:22   #17
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...Back when I first got started >10 years ago, some of us were pretty vocal about how moving to some kind of scanned bubble sheets would speed up the data entry. Obviously, that never happened. It just occurred to me though, with the leaps technology has made in that time, how far off might we be from the following setup:.....

...It's something to dream about at least.
I'm a super-techie and considered and suggested a similar system about 3-4 years ago when I got into GSSF. It only takes a casual observer a couple of minutes and one single match to realize there are MUCH better ways to do this. The technology was there >10 years ago; now the technology is cheaper and easier to implement.

Unfortunately, this largely falls on deaf ears. GSSFs IT savvy and (apparently) budget is nil. They can't get past the same old website they've had for (??) years and keep GSSF documents up-to-date.
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Old 08-28-2013, 22:36   #18
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I'm a super-techie and considered and suggested a similar system about 3-4 years ago when I got into GSSF. It only takes a casual observer a couple of minutes and one single match to realize there are MUCH better ways to do this. The technology was there >10 years ago; now the technology is cheaper and easier to implement.

Unfortunately, this largely falls on deaf ears. GSSFs IT savvy and (apparently) budget is nil. They can't get past the same old website they've had for (??) years and keep GSSF documents up-to-date.
Oh, the web site used to be far far worse. For a while, it was so broken, you actually got different content depending on your browser's user-agent. Not all the content was being updated...so some of us wouldn't see things others saw.

I think the biggest problems with higher tech scoring (anything reliant on a "computer" at the stage) is the cost of the equipment (both initial and maintenance) and the need for power at the stages. I doubt any tablet or common netbook would last from 9-5 under constant use. I suppose you could put a big external battery pack at each stage...but that's another expense and think of all the wires that'd be involved in recharging all that gear Saturday night and before the next match.

Unless the technology eliminated a staff person, there's probably no savings for GSSF/Glock, so what's their incentive? I'm sure we all want faster scores...but who wants to put someone out of a job? Actually, even if it did put someone out of a job, it'd likely create the need for a more expensive (IT) person to manage and keep all the gear running.

There's also the saying, To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer. Think of the chaos if the electronic system fouled up and large numbers of scores were lost or corrupted. At least with the paper sheets, that really can't happen. Sure, you could put a printer at each stage too...but that's even more $.
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Old 08-28-2013, 22:55   #19
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...I think the biggest problems with higher tech scoring (anything reliant on a "computer" at the stage) is the cost of the equipment (both initial and maintenance) and the need for power at the stages...
I think the biggest problem with high-tech or any-tech is the user(s). I would bet that a full 95% (or more) of the GSSF ROs have no idea whatsoever how to use the GSSF shot-timer menus to do things as simple as adjust sensitivity or review shot strings - and they'll do so much more than that. I-Pad/tablet input and use is, sadly... laughable.
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Old 08-29-2013, 05:58   #20
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who wants a faster system. I've seen tablet/computer based scoring at major USPSA matches with much more complicated scoring, so it could be done. What we are overlooking is that the scoring and compiling is not what appears to be taking the time. The scores for my match were up within 24 hours. The hard work was done almost immediately. The part that is holding things up is apparently this waiting period for reporting discrepancies. As Ron59 said, there is no reason to have a month dedicated to this.

Just to clarify, I'm not mad and I'm not denigrating GSSF or it's employees. I enjoyed the match I attended and everyone was great. I just think the scoring and prizes could be done faster.
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