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Old 07-08-2013, 14:57   #1
.264 magnum
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3rd, yes 3rd, amendment case.....

http://politics.foxnews.mobi/quickPa...03.proteus.fma


Hopefully, that link works.


I hope this guy wins millions and jobs are lost.
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:00   #2
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Yeah, this one's something to watch. One of these will work.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/07/05/...n-nevada-case/

http://now.msn.com/anthony-mitchell-...ent-violations

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/03/59061.htm
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:09   #3
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Cop haters!!!!

Sorry, just wanted to get in before they shut you down.
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:08   #4
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While I don't agree with the arrest, I don't see how they are going to argue it is in violation of the 3rd Amendment. Police aren't Soldier-- it' my understanding the reason for the amendment was for something very different. It'll be interesting to see how the lawyer(s) argue it.
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:25   #5
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Originally Posted by ArtyGuy View Post
While I don't agree with the arrest, I don't see how they are going to argue it is in violation of the 3rd Amendment. Police aren't Soldier-- it' my understanding the reason for the amendment was for something very different. It'll be interesting to see how the lawyer(s) argue it.
IMHO, they will argue that police = government = what the 3rd is about.
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:31   #6
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Originally Posted by ArtyGuy View Post
While I don't agree with the arrest, I don't see how they are going to argue it is in violation of the 3rd Amendment. Police aren't Soldier-- it' my understanding the reason for the amendment was for something very different. It'll be interesting to see how the lawyer(s) argue it.
Militarization of the police. Surplussed military equipment. More LEOs have military background. Rank structure. LE wear uniforms, including combat styled boots. Use of military terminology. DHS getting delivery of 2.7 billion rounds of small arms ammo since January 1 of this year. Expanded/common use of blue coloured roof lights on police cars indicating merger of UN practices (traditionally, U.S. LE/first reponders only used red and white lights).

Probably many more indicia that I missed.
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:35   #7
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Militarization of the police. Surplussed military equipment. More LEOs have military background. Rank structure. LE wear uniforms. Use of military terminology. DHS getting delivery of 2.7 billion rounds of small arms ammo since January 1 of this year. Expanded/common use of blue coloured roof lights on police cars indicative of adopting European/UN practices (traditionally, U.S. LE only used red and white lights).

Probably many more indicia that I missed.
Not going to weigh in on whether I think it's a good or bad thing, but there is a definite trend toward militarization of the police forces going on nationwide.

When I was a kid, cops most places looked basically like civilians in police uniforms and carried shotguns and revolvers. Now, as you said, most of them wear military haircuts and are issued AR's, and just about every department either has its own SWAT/SRT team or participates in a regional joint group.
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:44   #8
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Not going to weigh in on whether I think it's a good or bad thing, but there is a definite trend toward militarization of the police forces going on nationwide.

When I was a kid, cops most places looked basically like civilians in police uniforms and carried shotguns and revolvers. Now, as you said, most of them wear military haircuts and are issued AR's, and just about every department either has its own SWAT/SRT team or participates in a regional joint group.
I think it is that and the "blue wall" that makes cops feel like they are a class above your average civilian. In most other countries the cops are part of the community first and foremost and *big shocker* actually more interested in the welfare of the people they serve when who get's the newest model of Taser or laser sight.
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Old 07-08-2013, 16:05   #9
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I think it is that and the "blue wall" that makes cops feel like they are a class above your average civilian. In most other countries the cops are part of the community first and foremost and *big shocker* actually more interested in the welfare of the people they serve when who get's the newest model of Taser or laser sight.
I don't know if I'd go that far. There are a whole lot of places in the world where the police are basically thugs that get to do more or less what they want, including extortion, beating, etc. A lot of Asian, African, South American, and former Soviet countries fall into this category.

The "Blue Wall"/fraternity mentality is a legitimate thing that happens here, but it's pretty much guaranteed to happen to some degree or another. You have to factor in personality traits that are common in many police officers (very clear-cut, moralistic world view), and the fact that they are at odds with many or most of the people they interact with on a daily basis. They may not be exchanging gunfire or fists with every person they run into, but they deal with plenty of people in an average shift who aren't exactly happy to see them. These things are bound to foster an "us vs. them" mentality to some degree, but for the most part, it's pretty well controlled in this country. My biggest concerns with police in America are policy/administration/tactics oriented, and do not stem from the officers themselves.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:39   #10
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.... In most other countries the cops are part of the community first and foremost and *big shocker* actually more interested in the welfare of the people they serve ....
Two words come to mind "la mordida"
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:05   #11
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Originally Posted by Jose the carwash man View Post
I think it is that and the "blue wall" that makes cops feel like they are a class above your average civilian. In most other countries the cops are part of the community first and foremost and *big shocker* actually more interested in the welfare of the people they serve when who get's the newest model of Taser or laser sight.
I have not lived in "most other countries". I have however lived in Germany and Switzerland. I currently spend at least 50% of my time in Germany. I am in Germany right now.

With my limited sampling of comparing German, Swiss, and French police, to American police, I would say you are absolutely wrong. I think most American police do the job to "serve the community" to a much much greater extent than the European police I have met.

European police I think tend to be more formal towards people. They have a different way of handling situations. American police are much much more likely to shoot. But when it comes time to crack some skulls with a baton, European police will do it.

I however have gotten the impression that European police (again not all, but most that I have met) are police because it is a stable job. They aren't really doing it because its a higher calling for them.

I have the feeling that most of the police I have met in the USA are police because they have a sense of duty first.

If I needed rescuing, I will take USA police and fire over European any day. The Americans are much more likely to go in even if it means their own ass on the line.
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:50   #12
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Originally Posted by crazymoose View Post
Not going to weigh in on whether I think it's a good or bad thing, but there is a definite trend toward militarization of the police forces going on nationwide.

When I was a kid, cops most places looked basically like civilians in police uniforms and carried shotguns and revolvers. Now, as you said, most of them wear military haircuts and are issued AR's, and just about every department either has its own SWAT/SRT team or participates in a regional joint group.
I grew up in the 1970s and remember how cops looked back then. Bushy hair and hairy mustaches. And yes, I was like that too. Then in the 1980s I went with a rat tail! But that was stylish! Now I find crewcuts much more practical.

I do agree that U.S. LE has been forced to ramp up their equipment in response to many, many more BGs who are moving towards AK/AR rifles as their weapon of choice. I would not expect LEOs to go after long gun armed BGs with 6-shooters.
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Old 07-08-2013, 16:33   #13
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I do agree that U.S. LE has been forced to ramp up their equipment in response to many, many more BGs who are moving towards AK/AR rifles as their weapon of choice.

bullcrap.
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Old 07-08-2013, 16:00   #14
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Militarization of the police. Surplussed military equipment. More LEOs have military background. Rank structure. LE wear uniforms, including combat styled boots. Use of military terminology. DHS getting delivery of 2.7 billion rounds of small arms ammo since January 1 of this year. Expanded/common use of blue coloured roof lights on police cars indicating merger of UN practices (traditionally, U.S. LE/first reponders only used red and white lights).

Probably many more indicia that I missed.
Way back in the late 80s and early 90s when I was studying criminal justice in college, we examined the paramilitary structure of police forces-- it is nothing new. However, I don't see that being a successful legal argument. You can argue anything but it needs to be a good argument if you wish to be successful in court.

We didn't discuss the 3rd Amendment very much in Criminal or Cnstitutional Law because it was written based upon the fact British Soldiers forced owners to quarter them and there were not any court cases that changed the way things are done.-- it is rarely challenged.

To me, they key word is Soldiers. Police are not Soldiers. The military falls under Title 10 of the US government. Local police do not, State police do not, the FBI does not, the DHS does not, and the DoS does not. They all have different stipulations. I mention that because I would think showing the distinction can be the counter argument. The amendment was written to address Soldiers and there are legal definitions of what a Soldier (military) is. The fact that the arresting officers have military style rank and/or weapons does not magically give them military authorities.

(I'm to going to touch the DHS or UN practices because they have nothing to do with this).
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:41   #15
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Militarization of the police. Surplussed military equipment. More LEOs have military background. Rank structure. LE wear uniforms, including combat styled boots. Use of military terminology. DHS getting delivery of 2.7 billion rounds of small arms ammo since January 1 of this year. Expanded/common use of blue coloured roof lights on police cars indicating merger of UN practices (traditionally, U.S. LE/first reponders only used red and white lights).

Probably many more indicia that I missed.


And I have one word for you. DRONES
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:39   #16
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Originally Posted by ArtyGuy View Post
While I don't agree with the arrest, I don't see how they are going to argue it is in violation of the 3rd Amendment. Police aren't Soldier-- it' my understanding the reason for the amendment was for something very different. It'll be interesting to see how the lawyer(s) argue it.
police are not soldiers but they're government employees...
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:44   #17
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police are not soldiers but they're government employees...
So what you're saying is they're civilians like everyone else ?

If they're not subject to the UCMJ, they are civilians, no matter what dictionary tell you they're not.

If there's a murder on base, they always say "Oh, we have to let the "civilian agency" do their job" .

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Old 07-08-2013, 15:50   #18
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police are not soldiers but they're government employees...
I have a Ranger friend who said the RoE for American SWAT teams is lower than what he had going on raids in Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Old 07-08-2013, 16:04   #19
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I have a Ranger friend who said the RoE for American SWAT teams is lower than what he had going on raids in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I'm active duty Army with experience in both theaters doing raids. Your friend is mistaken or you misunderstood him. I would offer that SWAT teams would love to have the freedom we did. Nothing stopped us from hog tying folks, detaining them, etc. We weren't dealing with folks that had rights anywhere close to what John and Jane Q. Public have.
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Old 07-08-2013, 20:19   #20
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I'm active duty Army with experience in both theaters doing raids. Your friend is mistaken or you misunderstood him. I would offer that SWAT teams would love to have the freedom we did. Nothing stopped us from hog tying folks, detaining them, etc. We weren't dealing with folks that had rights anywhere close to what John and Jane Q. Public have.
He was a 3/75 Ranger and while I forget the exact wording, he responded to a video showing a botched SWAT raid with that comment.
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Old 07-11-2013, 00:29   #21
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Originally Posted by ArtyGuy View Post
While I don't agree with the arrest, I don't see how they are going to argue it is in violation of the 3rd Amendment. Police aren't Soldier-- it' my understanding the reason for the amendment was for something very different. It'll be interesting to see how the lawyer(s) argue it.
I agree. I would have objected to it under the 4th Amendment:The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Obviously they were not soldiers assigned to the house as a barracks. Even given that, soldiers were barracked in homes in the South with the what would be considered martial law now.

On the other hand, they did seize the house and that also comes under the 5th Amendment:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation

For forceable eviction from my home, including the violation of my home and the stress involved, my charge is the same as that for a penthouse apartment in Manhattan or $5000 a minute, whichever is more.
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Old 07-08-2013, 15:37   #22
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Breaking and entering, assault, and kidnapping under color of law?
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Old 07-08-2013, 20:37   #23
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Breaking and entering, assault, and kidnapping under color of law?
Sounds about right...
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:35   #24
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Originally Posted by Syclone0538 View Post
Breaking and entering, assault, and kidnapping under color of law?
I, too, was thinking more along these lines. Seems like an easier case for a prosecutor. Something like "unlawful taking" or "unlawful possession".

Maybe even due process clause violation, ie, taking of life, liberty or property without due process.

Just my .02 at the moment. Now I'll read the rest of the posts and see how others came down on this. Of course, these thoughts are presuming that what we have heard is even close to the actual facts!
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Old 07-11-2013, 00:39   #25
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Breaking and entering, assault, and kidnapping under color of law?
Good call.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investig...s/color_of_law
"...it’s a federal crime for anyone acting under “color of law” willfully to deprive or conspire to deprive a person of a right protected by the Constitution or U.S. law. “Color of law” simply means that the person is using authority given to him or her by a local, state, or federal government agency."

" Most of the cases involved crimes that fell into into five broad areas:
Excessive force;
Sexual assaults;
False arrest and fabrication of evidence;
Deprivation of property; and
Failure to keep from harm."
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