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Old 03-08-2013, 14:31   #1
ULVER
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Elmer Keith & Col. Jeff Cooper On Guns & Ammo For Police! lol!

Years ago, when people still put pen to paper, I used to correspond with all the classic names. Legends Elmer Keith and Col. Jeff Cooper were two.

On the subject of police weapons and loads, looking back it was kinda funny.

Elmer believed the ultimate police weapon was the S&W model-57 in .41 Magum. He liked the original police load of a 200gr. SWC @ 900fps, but when the police load was "warmed-up" to 210-grains @ 1,150 he kinda liked it. No over-penetration there!

"Better for shooting into the car, of fleeing bank robbers." Like a 1934 Ford with Bonnie & Clyde inside?

Col. Cooper believed every cop should carry a cocked & locked Colt .45 ACP, with military FMJ. I was constantly reminded, "it "knocks 'em down 90% of the time with one shot." "The 9mm was useless, and one of the reasons the Germans lost the war." K...

Thoughts>?

I told him once, that one PD used "stake-out squads" to curb robberies. Boy, did it ever! Usually with fatal results. The gun was the M2 carbine with & 110gr. soft-points.

Jeffco thought Thompson subs would be better, and they were around on the surplus market to law enforcement. Load of course: FMJ. The 90% thing and all that.

The shotgun was also a good choice. He liked the 12-gauge (Ithaca IIRC) and 3-inch magnum, 00 buckshot. Perfect choices for crowded "non & pop" groceries, or a a 7-11 on a Saturday night!
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Old 03-08-2013, 15:05   #2
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Cars weren't made outta gloried plastic back then.
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Old 03-08-2013, 16:22   #3
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I think anything Cooper and Keith had to say about handgun design and carry, bullet weight, caliber and velocity, and fight-stopping power would be interesting and informative. Jeff Cooper's commentaries, which he continued to write until his death in 2006, are available online. They are filled with gems and he was very aware of the then-latest in handgun invention and bullet design, which includes most of what we have now. Just as an example, cruise through his comments on the development of the 10mm and its subsequent incarnation in the .40 S&W.

You would do us all a great service if you would reduce the best correspondence to, for example, a blog or a long post on this forum. If you need help transcribing, I'll bet there would be volunteers.
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Old 03-08-2013, 16:23   #4
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Cars weren't made outta gloried plastic back then.
While the steel is thinner these days, it is much stronger. FD's are having to upgrade their cutting equiment to cut through the new cars.

I'm surprised both of them didn't just recommend 88 Magnums. Did they think Bill Jordan was a sissy for liking the 357 Mag?
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:42   #5
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Cars weren't made outta gloried plastic back then.
So true!
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Old 03-09-2013, 05:30   #6
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When the IPSC Nationals were held in Virginia Beach in the early '80's, I spent the better part of an afternoon setting in a trailer with Jeff Cooper discussing...of all things...the history and use of the sword in battle. (He had a strong interest in the blade) That was the year he pronounced to the shooting world the greatness of the D&D "Bren Ten". I got to shoot a sample he had, but in .45acp. MHO was that it was kind of a "clunk". The Col. was, if nothing else, opinionated.
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:01   #7
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Frank Hamer went with a .38 Super during his pursuit of Bonnie and Clyde.
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:54   #8
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The stats Jeff Cooper quoted for 230 grain hardball perhaps took into account proper shot placement. I really miss these quys.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:30   #9
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Quote:
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The stats Jeff Cooper quoted for 230 grain hardball perhaps took into account proper shot placement. I really miss these quys.

Yep, me too amigo !

I've never had a problem with harball. Still carry it a good deal of the time in the M1911 'when in town.' The FP's are best.


Take care my friend !




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Old 03-09-2013, 15:18   #10
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Well, it's one thing to toss out recommendations when you have no responsibility as to their end results.

Equipping large numbers of law officers who are occasional firearms users, often indifferent to their weapons as well, with heavy recoiling (.41 mag) or complex weapons systems (1911 pistols) just doesn't work out in the real world.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:27   #11
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Frank Hamer went with a .38 Super during his pursuit of Bonnie and Clyde.

But a Remington 8 rifle to kill them.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:31   #12
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Quote:
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But a Remington 8 rifle to kill them.
Yep. And a deputy with a BAR.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:50   #13
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Yep. And a deputy with a BAR.

And various other deputies with shotguns + other serious hardware.


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Old 03-09-2013, 11:35   #14
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My brush with such things was getting to know Col. Rex Applegate. (I have all of his books inscribed to me) . Spending time with him was interesting. He could pull out something from his personal experience that was relevant to almost any topic. Like Cooper, he was "opinionated".
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Old 03-09-2013, 15:08   #15
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One of the proudest days of my life was accepting my E ticket and a handshake from Col. Cooper. Spend a week under his tutelage and you will come to know just how high you can achieve.

He was a truly intimidating man, and did not suffer fools or duffers easily. He sought excellence in everything and everyone.
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Old 03-09-2013, 16:39   #16
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Gosh, maybe there should be something like, oh, standards that an officer should have to achieve and maintain with regard to firearm proficiency...

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Old 03-09-2013, 16:59   #17
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Jim Cirillo had much to say about modern day gunfighting.

So did Bill Jordan.

Them along with Keith and Cooper all saw the elephant and lived to tell the tails.

One can learn much from reading their writings.

Regards,

Olde School

P.S. If it's not a .357 then it better have a 4 as the first number.
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:56   #18
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I have got to go with the Chief here. Having experienced what he is talking about, it would indeed not make me feel good at all to send someone out on the street wearing a 1911 if they only had the level of training that many of them "get by with" on the Glock.

It isn't perfect world, cops are not generally gunfighters and many of them are less familiar with their weapons than many of us, bitten by the gun bug, were as teenagers.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:18   #19
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If the NYPD academy is an example of what the modern recruit is undergoing in training I don't think it is insufficient. Thirteen days of training ought to be enough to learn to push down on a safety lever. We send soldiers into combat zones with less training.

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Old 03-10-2013, 11:44   #20
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Perhaps the following situation will help explain both my position and the need to carefully evaluate the needs and abilities of those people receiving the training.

The Firearms and Tactics Section became embroiled in a “dispute” with the department's Emergency Services Unit (sort of our SWAT team, but those guys did lots more than a “normal” SWAT unit). This was during the mid-1980s. Our commanding officer, a great guy named Frank McGee (I learned a heck of a lot from Frank), was also pretty ridged. The ESU guys wanted to go to 9mm pistols. Frank was against it. His reasoning was, if the line officers saw that the ESU guys had “special” handguns, they’d feel their sidearms were inferior (at the time the primary handgun used was the S&W model 10).

The ESU guy heading up the charge for 9mms was Dominic. Nice guy, he wasn’t a professional firearms instructor but rather an intensely interested hobbyist. ESU eventually won the fight and they got to carry Beretta 92s (with FMJ rounds. No, I won’t get into a discussion on that here!).

Dominic came under the spell of the Beretta salesman. The department was using a submachine gun at the time we purchased from S&W, their model 76. Looked sort of like a Karl Gustaf. A good, reliable, simple to operate piece of machinery.

Dominic was sold on the Beretta model 12. Much sexier looking than the S&W 76.

ESU buys some. Not long after they start having a problem with unintentional discharges. Never had a problem before with their S&W sub-guns. What happened? Well, the Beretta 12 had the same ergonomic flaw the HK P7 series had; you had to depress a mechanism on the front of the grip (a safety with the Beretta) prior to discharging the piece. When you compress (bring rearward) your hand’s fingers there is a natural tendency for ALL the fingers to come back. If your finger happened to be on the trigger at the time, the gun would go off.

Yes, you can rail about all those dopes had to do was to learn to keep their fingers off the trigger until they were on target. Swell. When dealing with thousands of people being trained you must train to the weakest link. And the weakest link was having accidental discharges!

The Beretta 12s were pulled and S&W 76 went back into the ESU trucks. Eventually the department went to the HK MP5.
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