GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-02-2013, 18:43   #1
Gun Shark
Senior Member
 
Gun Shark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,916
Send a message via AIM to Gun Shark Send a message via MSN to Gun Shark Send a message via Yahoo to Gun Shark


Assisted living facility denied CPR to woman

Because of policy. This is truly astounding. Listen to the 911 recording in it's entirety if you get a chance.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/...n-dying-woman/

Here is a transcript of part of it.

http://www.kget.com/news/local/story...FDtxoK04Q.cspx


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." --Thomas Jefferson

"Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter."
Gun Shark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 18:47   #2
NeverMore1701
Platinum Membership
Fear no evil.
 
NeverMore1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Amarillo, Tx
Posts: 27,486
My blood pressure was just fine, thanks. I'd rather someone flag me down, off duty, to help in that sort of situation than read about crap like this. I've done CPR on old folks, some made it, more didn't. But Jesus, not even trying?

Then again the fact that it happened in an assisted living type place doesn't surprise me a bit.
__________________
And if we should die tonight
We should all die together
Raise a glass of wine
For the last time
NeverMore1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 19:05   #3
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
They assist with what exactly, if not actually living?
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com
Matthew Courtney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 20:01   #4
Halojumper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 9,930
Send a message via AIM to Halojumper Send a message via Yahoo to Halojumper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
They assist with what exactly, if not actually living?
I would guess they assist with day to day living tasks. It's not a hospital.
Halojumper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 20:07   #5
NeverMore1701
Platinum Membership
Fear no evil.
 
NeverMore1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Amarillo, Tx
Posts: 27,486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halojumper View Post
I would guess they assist with day to day living tasks. It's not a hospital.
They are, however, medical professionals who denied basic lifesaving care to someone.
__________________
And if we should die tonight
We should all die together
Raise a glass of wine
For the last time
NeverMore1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 10:25   #6
Haldor
Retired EE
 
Haldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Arizona
Posts: 5,535
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverMore1701 View Post
They are, however, medical professionals who denied basic lifesaving care to someone.
Either they had a duty to act or they did not have a duty to act. The duty to act for employees of a facility is spelled out in their employment contract and by their supervisors direction. They are not required to act outside of how their employers define their duties.

I am a first responder. I have training and equipment and volunteer to help people in need and once I start treating someone then I have both a legal and moral obligation to not abandon them. However my training and equipment does not make me responsible for every person I happen to come across in my daily life.

Would I have given that woman CPR, absolutely. However I would have been under no obligation to do so.

What ticks me off is that the facility didn't have an AED available. You don't have to really have any training to use one and all CPR is for is to buy time for an AED to get there.
__________________
Quote:
Guys! Guys! He's down! Stop kicking him! If he shows up on another thread, Tasers are indicated, but for now, let him slink off into the shadows to lick his wounds and ponder how deeply cool and misunderstood he is!
Hoot nred Mrs. Vr.

Last edited by Haldor; 03-05-2013 at 10:34..
Haldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 19:12   #7
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,848
I read the article. The woman was not in the more costly assisted living facility. She was in the adjacent independent living facility. The people who pay for medical services get medical services. The people who do not pay for medical services do not get medical services. If people get services without paying, no one will pay because there will be no reason to. In a competitive environment, companies giving services away for free will go under.
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.

www.louisianashooters.com
Matthew Courtney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 19:14   #8
NeverMore1701
Platinum Membership
Fear no evil.
 
NeverMore1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Amarillo, Tx
Posts: 27,486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
I read the article. The woman was not in the more costly assisted living facility. She was in the adjacent independent living facility. The people who pay for medical services get medical services. The people who do not pay for medical services do not get medical services. If people get services without paying, no one will pay because there will be no reason to. In a competitive environment, companies giving services away for free will go under.
There were (supposedly) trained professionals right there who couldn't or wouldn't lift a finger to help someone who was having an acute medical emergency for the 7 minutes it took for fire to arrive. That's bull****.
__________________
And if we should die tonight
We should all die together
Raise a glass of wine
For the last time
NeverMore1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:06   #9
MedicOni
Senior Member
 
MedicOni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central NM
Posts: 2,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverMore1701 View Post
There were (supposedly) trained professionals right there who couldn't or wouldn't lift a finger to help someone who was having an acute medical emergency for the 7 minutes it took for fire to arrive. That's bull****.
How is it different than a hospital calling 911 because something happenned in their parking lot? It's a 'liability' issue.
__________________
NREMT-P
MedicOni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:49   #10
OlliesRevenge
Senior Member
 
OlliesRevenge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: WA
Posts: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicOni View Post
How is it different than a hospital calling 911 because something happenned in their parking lot? It's a 'liability' issue.
There is a difference between calling 911 for help ("help" meaning you are taking action and need assistance), and calling 911 as a passerby. As trained professionals, hospital staff have a duty to act. As do staff at a care facility.

The ER at Harborview Medical Center in Seattle occasionally calls 911 for assistance with an ET tube - because Seattle Fire Paramedics are arguably the most experienced people in the world at dropping a tube in an airway. But ER staff are working the Pt. when they call.

If I have a medical emergency in a hospital parking lot, I believe I can reasonably expect to get care from hospital staff... and I bet I could find a lawyer who would agree.

If I am in uniform at Starbucks before reporting to work, and someone goes into cardiac arrest, I have a duty to act. The public expects it based on who I am, and I will not let them down, but I will call 911 for help.

Even stupid and incompetent people deserve assistance when they need it - old people deserve assistance. It is not my place to "play God" and deliver judgement based on age. Humans have lived past 100 years. If someone "crumps" in my presence, in the absence of a POLST that says otherwise, I will help. As a professional who is trained in solving problems of all sorts, I have a moral obligation to act at all times. I open doors for old folks, I have put out MV fires with snow off duty, and I have done CPR off duty in civilian clothes.

The caregivers in Bakersfield fell short of what is expected... regardless of whether or not they get sued... they did not represent the profession.
__________________
Good men must not obey the laws too well.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it.
~Henry David Thoreau

Remember always: The government is not the country!
OlliesRevenge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 13:16   #11
faceplant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post

The ER at Harborview Medical Center in Seattle occasionally calls 911 for assistance with an ET tube - because Seattle Fire Paramedics are arguably the most experienced people in the world at dropping a tube in an airway. But ER staff are working the Pt. when they call.
.
So your telling us the areas only Level I trauma center has to call the fire dept for ET tube help.?
faceplant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 13:20   #12
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
There is a difference between calling 911 for help ("help" meaning you are taking action and need assistance), and calling 911 as a passerby. As trained professionals, hospital staff have a duty to act. As do staff at a care facility.
And you know that the law is not identical in every state.
The case I referenced earlier - same state (CA), where 1st responders stood by for an hour and watched a man drown in less than 3ft of water, because policy stated they could not assist, due to not recertifying, and not having the specific gear required for that type of rescue. Eventually a nurse passing by simply walked out there, grabbed the dude and started running CPR on him (IIRC)
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011...cy-forbids-it/


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
The ER at Harborview Medical Center in Seattle occasionally calls 911 for assistance with an ET tube - because Seattle Fire Paramedics are arguably the most experienced people in the world at dropping a tube in an airway. But ER staff are working the Pt. when they call.
This is a poor long term plan. It is mind boggling that a Level 1 trauma center with 1200 physicians on roster is calling outside of the facility to 911 to get a paramedic to do a trache tube. I am not casting doubt on your story. From a emergency management perspective it would be far more cost effective and risk averse in the long run to have those skills sets sharpened for in house personnel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
If I have a medical emergency in a hospital parking lot, I believe I can reasonably expect to get care from hospital staff... and I bet I could find a lawyer who would agree.
Listen, we can find attorneys to do virtually anything. It is one of the distinct reasons why health care is so hamstrung as it is. It depends on your state laws and hospital policy. The fellow that was in the water up near San Fran, or his family could have also "reasonably expected" some sort of rescue to be effected. That case underscores that your expectations and reality may not always dovetail.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
If I am in uniform at Starbucks before reporting to work, and someone goes into cardiac arrest, I have a duty to act. The public expects it based on who I am, and I will not let them down, but I will call 911 for help.
Again, you can only speak for your locality/state. This is not the "law" or policy everywhere in the USA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
  • Even stupid and incompetent people deserve assistance when they need it - old people deserve assistance.
  • It is not my place to "play God" and deliver judgement based on age. Humans have lived past 100 years.
  • If someone "crumps" in my presence, in the absence of a POLST that says otherwise, I will help. As a professional who is trained in solving problems of all sorts, I have a moral obligation to act at all times. I open doors for old folks, I have put out MV fires with snow off duty, and I have done CPR off duty in civilian clothes.
  • The caregivers in Bakersfield fell short of what is expected... regardless of whether or not they get sued... they did not represent the profession.

These observations are real, and as I have mentioned before, I am curious as to what will be the outcome of the investigation, and what charges, sanctions and penalties will be levied.

On the part that I have highlighted, on playing God...my sister was on (mostly artificial) life support for approximately 36 days. She was incapable of breathing on her own, was comatose, was mostly unresponsive to external stimuli, had pneumonia, fluids accumulating in her lungs (she went in with severely diminished respiratory capacity, one lung was compromised, the other was affected), her systems were shutting down...she started accumulating fluids in the wrong places....I pulled the plug at the onset of necrosis, but not after a fairly bitter struggle with family members AND HER CHURCH, who were adamant and insistent that taking her off life support was contravening God's will. They started almost round the clock vigils by her hospital room, making our lives more stressful than it was or needed to be.

Sometimes we play God when we intervene. It is a very delicate balance knowing where to tread. I have already stated my positions on what I would, and would not do.


- G
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 19:53   #13
Jade Falcon
Go Blazers!
 
Jade Falcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Vancouver, WA.
Posts: 3,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverMore1701 View Post
There were (supposedly) trained professionals right there who couldn't or wouldn't lift a finger to help someone who was having an acute medical emergency for the 7 minutes it took for fire to arrive. That's bull****.
Thank you!

I've been following this since it broke, and I was absolutely astonished beyond belief, listening to the 911 transcript. Truthfully, I feel most sorry for the dispatcher who got the call!

I cannot tell you, in words, how much money I'd sue this place out of existence if this was one of my loved ones. I'd make sure NOBODY who worked there EVER AGAIN got a job in the ENTIRE state. And I'd see the entire company go broke.

In short, I'd be rich beyond my wildest dreams, and able to give my late loved one a proper funeral.
__________________
AK-47 WASR 10/63, Puma M92 16" .454 Casull, Glock 22 .40 S&W, Marlin M60W .22 LR, Ruger GP100 4" .357 Magnum, Winchester M1400 12 ga.
Jade Falcon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 20:00   #14
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade Falcon View Post
Thank you!

I've been following this since it broke, and I was absolutely astonished beyond belief, listening to the 911 transcript. Truthfully, I feel most sorry for the dispatcher who got the call!

I cannot tell you, in words, how much money I'd sue this place out of existence if this was one of my loved ones. I'd make sure NOBODY who worked there EVER AGAIN got a job in the ENTIRE state. And I'd see the entire company go broke.

In short, I'd be rich beyond my wildest dreams, and able to give my late loved one a proper funeral.

Prepare to have your head exploded then:

http://www.johnobrienlaw.com/news/ma...ls-questioned/
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 20:01   #15
WarCry
Senior Member
 
WarCry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: IL, on the banks of the Muddy River
Posts: 7,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade Falcon View Post
I cannot tell you, in words, how much money I'd sue this place out of existence if this was one of my loved ones. I'd make sure NOBODY who worked there EVER AGAIN got a job in the ENTIRE state. And I'd see the entire company go broke.

In short, I'd be rich beyond my wildest dreams, and able to give my late loved one a proper funeral.
Actually, from all reports, you would lose. The assisted living (NOT nursing!) home had it in their contract that they did not provide medical assistance. The resident signed that contract. The resident's family knew that was the case.

You can't sign a contract and then sue when you don't like the terms of the contract after the fact.
__________________
"If you have something to say, now would be a perfect time to keep it to yourself." --Col. Chester Phillips
"If you believe everything you read, better not read." --Japanese proverb
WarCry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 20:10   #16
Jade Falcon
Go Blazers!
 
Jade Falcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Vancouver, WA.
Posts: 3,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Actually, from all reports, you would lose. The assisted living (NOT nursing!) home had it in their contract that they did not provide medical assistance. The resident signed that contract. The resident's family knew that was the case.

You can't sign a contract and then sue when you don't like the terms of the contract after the fact.
SURELY there is a law SOMEWHERE that says that a reasonable person is required to TRY to render medical assistance, regardless of policies.

So you'd be happy with your grandmother/mother/aunt, etc. just laying on the carpet, with a nurse/employee/whatever standing over them....doing what? Staring at her? Poking her with thier shoe? Yelling at her?

Bull**** sir.
__________________
AK-47 WASR 10/63, Puma M92 16" .454 Casull, Glock 22 .40 S&W, Marlin M60W .22 LR, Ruger GP100 4" .357 Magnum, Winchester M1400 12 ga.
Jade Falcon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 21:12   #17
GVFlyer
Senior Member
 
GVFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere in the air.
Posts: 6,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
I read the article. The woman was not in the more costly assisted living facility. She was in the adjacent independent living facility. The people who pay for medical services get medical services. The people who do not pay for medical services do not get medical services. If people get services without paying, no one will pay because there will be no reason to. In a competitive environment, companies giving services away for free will go under.
Is this an endorsement of their policies?
__________________
The Truth Only Hurts If It Should.

http://www.specialops.org/
GVFlyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 19:13   #18
NeverMore1701
Platinum Membership
Fear no evil.
 
NeverMore1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Amarillo, Tx
Posts: 27,486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
They assist with what exactly, if not actually living?

Soaking up a paycheck while doing as little as possible, usually. The folks who actually care in those places are absolute angels, but I sure haven't had the pleasure of meeting many of them. The majority seem to consist of asswipes who couldn't get (or were fired from) a healthcare job that required a modicum of compassion, professionalism, and competence.
__________________
And if we should die tonight
We should all die together
Raise a glass of wine
For the last time
NeverMore1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 19:18   #19
rick458
USS Texas BB-35
 
rick458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: La Porte Texas
Posts: 6,701
Sure sounds like a duty to act failure, from here.
__________________
SemperFi My Brothers
"Never pass up a good opportunity to keep your mouth shut" Winston Churchhill
rick458 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 19:29   #20
nursetim
Senior Member
 
nursetim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: liberalville N. M.
Posts: 6,601
Did the Pt. have a "do not resuscitate" order? If not, someone's family is going to get paid. The "nurse" needs to loose her license if there was no DNR.

One hospital I worked at required we call 911 if someone went down for any reason. Risk managers and lawyers are like mass murderers in that trying to figure them out would likely drive you insane.
__________________
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium. - I prefer liberty with danger to peace with slavery.
nursetim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 19:34   #21
NeverMore1701
Platinum Membership
Fear no evil.
 
NeverMore1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Amarillo, Tx
Posts: 27,486
Quote:
Originally Posted by nursetim View Post
Did the Pt. have a "do not resuscitate" order? If not, someone's family is going to get paid. The "nurse" needs to loose her license if there was no DNR.

One hospital I worked at required we call 911 if someone went down for any reason. Risk managers and lawyers are like mass murderers in that trying to figure them out would likely drive you insane.
Quote:
The 87-year-old woman died. Reports identify her at Lorraine Bayless and confirm she did not have a do-not-resuscitate order. Her daughter told 17News she is satisfied with Glenwood's handling of the situation.
I wonder how much her daughter had coming in the will.
__________________
And if we should die tonight
We should all die together
Raise a glass of wine
For the last time
NeverMore1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 19:49   #22
tsmo1066
Happy Smiley
 
tsmo1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,255


Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverMore1701 View Post
I wonder how much her daughter had coming in the will.
I imagine she will change her tune once an attorney makes her aware of the windfall that she potentially has coming in a lawsuit.
__________________
Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. - Benjamin Franklin
tsmo1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 19:59   #23
Halojumper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 9,930
Send a message via AIM to Halojumper Send a message via Yahoo to Halojumper
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
I imagine she will change her tune once an attorney makes her aware of the windfall that she potentially has coming in a lawsuit.
I suspect it's that attitude right there that led to this in the first place. I suspect the company made the choice to require their staff to do nothing rather than risk a lawsuit if they did try and something went wrong. Of course, if the CPR doesn't work, even if done correctly, the person dies and now the family want a scapegoat. I can't say that I blame them.
Halojumper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 21:36   #24
tsmo1066
Happy Smiley
 
tsmo1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,255


Quote:
Originally Posted by Halojumper View Post
I suspect it's that attitude right there that led to this in the first place. I suspect the company made the choice to require their staff to do nothing rather than risk a lawsuit if they did try and something went wrong. Of course, if the CPR doesn't work, even if done correctly, the person dies and now the family want a scapegoat. I can't say that I blame them.
I can most definitely blame them. If, out of purely monetary concerns around litigation, a medical professional ignores the ethical comitments of their profession, it's time to close the doors and find another line of work.

Nurses and doctors are there first, foremost and always to assist the sick and dying. The thought of a group of trained nurses sitting around and watching an elderly woman die while a 911 operator begs them to start CPR is morally repulsive.

I can almost understand the corporate powers-that-be writing a policy to protect the company's bottom line, but one would hope that in a situation as aggregious as this, the nurses involved would have had the moral courage to say "I'm not an accountant, I'm a medical professional first."
__________________
Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. - Benjamin Franklin

Last edited by tsmo1066; 03-02-2013 at 21:37..
tsmo1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2013, 23:23   #25
racerford
Senior Member
 
racerford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,861


Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
I imagine she will change her tune once an attorney makes her aware of the windfall that she potentially has coming in a lawsuit.
Perhaps she is satisfied with their actions because she anticipates a double payout.
racerford is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:01.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 904
255 Members
649 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42