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Old 02-25-2013, 19:51   #1
The-Fly
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Car stop with a ccw driver - what would you do?

Preface: I suspect this may end up being a controversial thread. I post this because I am curious what all of you in CT (that are LE) think about my question. I'm not here to bash or start a "all cops are JBT's" type thread. Nor will I criticize any LE responses to this thread.

Background facts:
I have a family member who is LE in my state. Just to be 100% clear, CCW is shall issue in my state, and you're not legally required to inform LE during a stop. I am not LE myself, but I do have a ccw permit, and know a LOT of people who ccw themselves.

Anyways, during a phone call tonight, my family member (referred to as the FM from here on out) was talking about he dislikes shall issue ccw ("They hand them out like candy here"), and related a story of pulling over a driver for a minor traffic offense (no other reason for the stop other then the traffice violation).

Prior to the stop, running the plates shows nothing of interest. The driver was polite and compliant when contacted, and when requested for his car registration and insurance, reached over to his glover box to get the documents. When the driver reached over, his shirt hiked up a bit, revealing a handgun holstered on the left side hip area.

The FM at this point draws his firearm, points it at the head of the driver, and orders the driver out of the car and detains him.


My first question is this: Given the same situation, what would you do?


My second question related to this. Given the same situation, but lets say the driver informs you promptly during the stop that he's armed and has a permit. He keeps his hands on the steering wheel at all times. Under what circumstances do you feel it would be appropriate to pull the driver out of the car, and handcuff him?
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Old 02-25-2013, 20:23   #2
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Here in Texas, CHLs are required by law to identify themselves to law enforcement when stopped.

If I made a traffic stop, and while I was talking to the driver I saw he had a gun, and he hadn't notified me (as required by law), I'd probably screw a gun in his ear too.

The way I see it, there's really no good reason not to tell a cop, who stopped you for breaking a law (albeit a small one), that you've got a gun on you, unless you're up to no good. If you're up to no good, and you've got a gun on you, you can expect to have my gun screwed in your ear.

I'd rather get the jump on someone, and have to dust them them off later with a sincere apology, than let a potential BG with a gun get the jump on me. I like going home to my family at night.

Does that make me a bad guy?


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Old 02-26-2013, 07:56   #3
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Originally Posted by txleapd View Post
If I made a traffic stop, and while I was talking to the driver I saw he had a gun, and he hadn't notified me (as required by law), I'd probably screw a gun in his ear too.

The way I see it, there's really no good reason not to tell a cop, who stopped you for breaking a law (albeit a small one), that you've got a gun on you, unless you're up to no good. If you're up to no good, and you've got a gun on you, you can expect to have my gun screwed in your ear.

I'd rather get the jump on someone, and have to dust them them off later with a sincere apology, than let a potential BG with a gun get the jump on me. I like going home to my family at night.

Does that make me a bad guy?
IMHO, yes it does, because you are recklessly putting people's lives at risk who have shown no intent to cause harm to you. I've pulled people over who had guns they didn't tell me about, and I've also had people pull up to the highway checkpoint I was working at while they were carrying, and I've NEVER screwed my gun in anyone's ear simply for being armed, even if they didn't tell me.

In those situtations, sometimes I'll unsnap the holster, other times I'll do a one-hand draw and have my pistol out, but pointing a deadly weapon at someone without any articulable facts other than "he was armed" is reckless. How's it going to look if you are aimed in at his head and have an ND? That's going to go AWESOME for you in court...

Lawyer: Was the subject threatening you before you killed him?

You: Uh, no. But he had a gun!

Lawyer: ...A gun which the subject was carrying legally. So I ask you again if the subject was threatening you, or otherwise manifesting the means, opportunity, and intent to make you or a third party suffer grievous bodily harm or death?

You: Uh... no. But he had a gun! He's supposed to notify me he's carrying!

Lawyer: If it pleases the court, allow me to point out to the court that in exhibit 135a, the crime scene photos indicate that the deceased's CCW permit was found in the glove box. Now officer, is it POSSIBLE that the deceased was retrieving his CCW permit in an attempt to non-verbally notify you he was carrying a gun at the time you shot him? Because officer, you may recall earlier testimony from our expert witness, a CCW instructor, that CCW students are trained to not state verbally that they have a gun as this may alarm the officer, but that it is best to simply hand their CCW permit to an officer along with their license and registration, as this is the manner least likely to panic the officer?

You: Uh, I guess he could have been reaching for his permit.

Lawyer: So your testimony is that you shot and killed the subject while he was attempting to both follow your orders AND comply with state law?


Good luck with that.

I would suggest that if you don't like spending the next 25 to life in solitary (because they usually have to put cops in solitary, as other prisoners like to beat/stab former cops), I would suggest that you take a hard look at your training. Perhaps unholserting, keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction ("low ready"/"low search" comes to mind), and a forceful command to "freeze or I shoot" would be in order.

Something else to consider: You're in Texas, no? Last I checked, there are alot of Border Patrol, Customs, and ICE agents, not to mention FBI and ATF agents that work the border areas in texas, and as Federal LEOs they have NATIONWIDE concealed carry authority, and State laws regaring CCW notification etc DO NOT APPLY. That means they have NO DUTY to inform you they're carrying. Personally, if you pulled that crap with me and screwed a gun in my ear while I was "carrying on my creds", I'd call up my chief to tell him what happened. He'd then have a little chat with your chief (I'm sure the topic of federal supplemental and matching funds for local LE would come up, and how percarious the current budget situation is). I would imagine that your chief would then want to have a "heart-to-heart" with you about what went down. Would probably end up costing you getting a nastygram put in your personnel file at least.

I'm not saying you shouldn't draw down on someone who obviously is a turd, I'm just saying that "having a gun" alone is no darn good reason to potentially end someone's life. You better have articulable facts. $0.02

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Old 02-26-2013, 09:01   #4
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Personally, if you pulled that crap with me and screwed a gun in my ear while I was "carrying on my creds", I'd call up my chief to tell him what happened. He'd then have a little chat with your chief (I'm sure the topic of federal supplemental and matching funds for local LE would come up, and how percarious the current budget situation is).
Wow, you got that much juice that if you tell your chief, and he calls the TX local's chief, the topic of federal funds for local LE will come up and somehow be used as leverage to bully someone into cowering down and bowing to the feds and then result in formal discipline in someone's jacket?

So... you mentioned your "chief"... not SAC... so you are uniformed federal police instead of an 1811 agent? Praytell, which federal police agency has their chief available for you to call from Texas regarding this contact? You must have some juice.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:10   #5
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Wow, you got that much juice that if you tell your chief, and he calls the TX local's chief, the topic of federal funds for local LE will come up and somehow be used as leverage to bully someone into cowering down and bowing to the feds and then result in formal discipline in someone's jacket?

So... you mentioned your "chief"... not SAC... so you are uniformed federal police instead of an 1811 agent? Praytell, which federal police agency has their chief available for you to call from Texas regarding this contact? You must have some juice.
Series 1896. And no, it's not a personal "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM? I have this much pull, so sod off!" kinda thing, it's a "our chief looks out for all of us, and doesn't take kindly to local dip poops who act like idiots and endanger the lives of our agents" kinda thing.

I say that, because that is the scenario that happened to a coworker of mine. Happened in El Centro, CA. Agent pulled over by HiPo, HiPo freaks out that he's carrying because NOBODY in CA is allowed to carry, not even off duty federal LEOs (HiPo's words) and draws down on teh agent. HiPo goes to arrest agent, so agent complies (not wanting to make a scene), but in following Federal law, he requests that the HiPo call a Federal 1896 supervisor to come take posession of his firearm because the HiPo is prohibited by federal regulation from taking posession of it. HiPo goes all ninja, screws a gun in agent's ear, and threatens to shoot him of he even moves. At this point the agent realizes the HiPo is an unhinged idiot, so just goes along with him without incident. At the HiPo station, agent's one phone call is to the chief. Chief sends out an 1896 supervisor who RIPS into the HiPos. Goes up one side of them and down the other, informs the HiPos that they are NOT authorized to take posession of a federal LEO's firearm, that federal LEOs ARE allowed to carry off duty, and that if he wanted to be a jerk about it, he could arrest the HiPo who sacked up the agent, as well as suggest that the "Operation Stonegarden" funding for that particular HiPo station be "re-examined". Agent who was arrested gets released, gets his gun back, and gets sent on his way with a profuse apology from the HiPo duty sergeant. Last I heard the arresting HiPo officer was put on unpaid leave because he screwed a gun in the 1896 agent's ear for no good reason.

Real world experience I gleaned by speaking with the arrested agent in the above story. Just sayin.

So please... enlighten me on how you are an expert on how my agency reacts to local LEOs recklessly endangering our agents without any articulable facts. I'm all ears.




And for the locals who think it's OK to screw a gun in someone's ear for just having a gun, riddle me this? What happens when a passing car has a backfire? What happens if a passing car accidentally bumps the officer while he's aimed in, and the involuntary muscle response to clench the fists kicks in? It's dangerous, it's irresponsible, and it's unprofessional. Muzzle discipline still needs to be followed.

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Old 02-26-2013, 10:34   #6
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
Series 1896. And no, it's not a personal "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM? I have this much pull, so sod off!" kinda thing, it's a "our chief looks out for all of us, and doesn't take kindly to local dip poops who act like idiots and endanger the lives of our agents" kinda thing.

I say that, because that is the scenario that happened to a coworker of mine. Happened in El Centro, CA. Agent pulled over by HiPo, HiPo freaks out that he's carrying because NOBODY in CA is allowed to carry, not even off duty federal LEOs (HiPo's words) and draws down on teh agent. HiPo goes to arrest agent, so agent complies (not wanting to make a scene), but in following Federal law, he requests that the HiPo call a Federal 1896 supervisor to come take posession of his firearm because the HiPo is prohibited by federal regulation from taking posession of it. HiPo goes all ninja, screws a gun in agent's ear, and threatens to shoot him of he even moves. At this point the agent realizes the HiPo is an unhinged idiot, so just goes along with him without incident. At the HiPo station, agent's one phone call is to the chief. Chief sends out an 1896 supervisor who RIPS into the HiPos. Goes up one side of them and down the other, informs the HiPos that they are NOT authorized to take posession of a federal LEO's firearm, that federal LEOs ARE allowed to carry off duty, and that if he wanted to be a jerk about it, he could arrest the HiPo who sacked up the agent, as well as suggest that the "Operation Stonegarden" funding for that particular HiPo station be "re-examined". Agent who was arrested gets released, gets his gun back, and gets sent on his way with a profuse apology from the HiPo duty sergeant. Last I heard the arresting HiPo officer was put on unpaid leave because he screwed a gun in the 1896 agent's ear for no good reason.

Real world experience I gleaned by speaking with the arrested agent in the above story. Just sayin.

So please... enlighten me on how you are an expert on how my agency reacts to local LEOs recklessly endangering our agents without any articulable facts. I'm all ears.




And for the locals who think it's OK to screw a gun in someone's ear for just having a gun, riddle me this? What happens when a passing car has a backfire? What happens if a passing car accidentally bumps the officer while he's aimed in, and the involuntary muscle response to clench the fists kicks in? It's dangerous, it's irresponsible, and it's unprofessional. Muzzle discipline still needs to be followed.
I find this entire scenario reeks of BS. I arrested a DEA agent for beating up his girlfriend and possessing a firearm while intoxicated, and his gun was seized. If some Fed supervisor came down and "ripped into" anybody and demanded anything, he would go right into a cell too. I don't work for the Feds nor do I care what they like or demand.

For the record my brother is a Fed and I have worked woth them in the past.
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Old 02-26-2013, 16:20   #7
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Originally Posted by blk69stang View Post
Series 1896. And no, it's not a personal "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM? I have this much pull, so sod off!" kinda thing, it's a "our chief looks out for all of us, and doesn't take kindly to local dip poops who act like idiots and endanger the lives of our agents" kinda thing.

I say that, because that is the scenario that happened to a coworker of mine. Happened in El Centro, CA. Agent pulled over by HiPo, HiPo freaks out that he's carrying because NOBODY in CA is allowed to carry, not even off duty federal LEOs (HiPo's words) and draws down on teh agent. HiPo goes to arrest agent, so agent complies (not wanting to make a scene), but in following Federal law, he requests that the HiPo call a Federal 1896 supervisor to come take posession of his firearm because the HiPo is prohibited by federal regulation from taking posession of it. HiPo goes all ninja, screws a gun in agent's ear, and threatens to shoot him of he even moves. At this point the agent realizes the HiPo is an unhinged idiot, so just goes along with him without incident. At the HiPo station, agent's one phone call is to the chief. Chief sends out an 1896 supervisor who RIPS into the HiPos. Goes up one side of them and down the other, informs the HiPos that they are NOT authorized to take posession of a federal LEO's firearm, that federal LEOs ARE allowed to carry off duty, and that if he wanted to be a jerk about it, he could arrest the HiPo who sacked up the agent, as well as suggest that the "Operation Stonegarden" funding for that particular HiPo station be "re-examined". Agent who was arrested gets released, gets his gun back, and gets sent on his way with a profuse apology from the HiPo duty sergeant. Last I heard the arresting HiPo officer was put on unpaid leave because he screwed a gun in the 1896 agent's ear for no good reason.

Real world experience I gleaned by speaking with the arrested agent in the above story. Just sayin.

So please... enlighten me on how you are an expert on how my agency reacts to local LEOs recklessly endangering our agents without any articulable facts. I'm all ears.




And for the locals who think it's OK to screw a gun in someone's ear for just having a gun, riddle me this? What happens when a passing car has a backfire? What happens if a passing car accidentally bumps the officer while he's aimed in, and the involuntary muscle response to clench the fists kicks in? It's dangerous, it's irresponsible, and it's unprofessional. Muzzle discipline still needs to be followed.
PM me. I am curious what class you were. Most of my class moved on, but we were all spread from hell to breakfast. Maybe were in the same class. I heard a similar story when I was in about overzealous locals wanting to try to yank BPA's pistols. Hell, I got into a pissing match with one SO that was picking up a guy at my checkpoint and tried to tell me that BPA's couldn't carry. We agreed to disagree when I told him, "You can try and take it, but you won't like the result."
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:09   #8
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IMHO, yes it does, because you are recklessly putting people's lives at risk who have shown no intent to cause harm to you. I've pulled people over who had guns they didn't tell me about, and I've also had people pull up to the highway checkpoint I was working at while they were carrying, and I've NEVER screwed my gun in anyone's ear simply for being armed, even if they didn't tell me.

In those situtations, sometimes I'll unsnap the holster, other times I'll do a one-hand draw and have my pistol out, but pointing a deadly weapon at someone without any articulable facts other than "he was armed" is reckless. How's it going to look if you are aimed in at his head and have an ND? That's going to go AWESOME for you in court...

Lawyer: Was the subject threatening you before you killed him?

You: Uh, no. But he had a gun!

Lawyer: ...A gun which the subject was carrying legally. So I ask you again if the subject was threatening you, or otherwise manifesting the means, opportunity, and intent to make you or a third party suffer grievous bodily harm or death?

You: Uh... no. But he had a gun! He's supposed to notify me he's carrying!

Lawyer: If it pleases the court, allow me to point out to the court that in exhibit 135a, the crime scene photos indicate that the deceased's CCW permit was found in the glove box. Now officer, is it POSSIBLE that the deceased was retrieving his CCW permit in an attempt to non-verbally notify you he was carrying a gun at the time you shot him? Because officer, you may recall earlier testimony from our expert witness, a CCW instructor, that CCW students are trained to not state verbally that they have a gun as this may alarm the officer, but that it is best to simply hand their CCW permit to an officer along with their license and registration, as this is the manner least likely to panic the officer?

You: Uh, I guess he could have been reaching for his permit.

Lawyer: So your testimony is that you shot and killed the subject while he was attempting to both follow your orders AND comply with state law?


Good luck with that.

I would suggest that if you don't like spending the next 25 to life in solitary (because they usually have to put cops in solitary, as other prisoners like to beat/stab former cops), I would suggest that you take a hard look at your training. Perhaps unholserting, keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction ("low ready"/"low search" comes to mind), and a forceful command to "freeze or I shoot" would be in order.

I'm not saying you shouldn't draw down on someone who obviously is a turd, I'm just saying that "having a gun" alone is no darn good reason to potentially end someone's life. You better have articulable facts. $0.02
Also, this.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:23   #9
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IMHO, yes it does, because you are recklessly putting people's lives at risk who have shown no intent to cause harm to you.
Only two people know whether or not that person is intent on harming you. The person with the gun and God.

They don't want to tell you they are armed and you see their gun? Well they get a gun from LE pointed at them. You can sort out the other stuff later.

I guess I know of too many traffic stops going bad in a matter of a split second. Guess that's why we always preach and teach that traffic stops are one of the most dangerous things we do.

Sorry if you disagree.

Fly-since I work where you live I can tell you what will, or should happen, in your scenario. You will/should get a gun from PD pointed at you immediately. You will then be pulled out, disarmed, and handcuffed for the remainder of the stop for officer safety reasons. If you are legally carrying then no charges will come of it. Realize also that you are allowed to carry a loaded weapon inside your car anyhow. Doesn't cover carrying it on you.

My personal behavior from people who have informed me that there are weapons in the car were; asking them to keep it where it is, and not to make any furtive movements while I go back to my car and take care of whatever business I originally intended to deal with, then let them go. Or have them step out of the car, if the gun is somewhere inside the car and they are giving me reason to want to separate them from immediate access, while I go an attend to whatever business I originally intended to deal with.

Did I mention that I have never given someone a traffic ticket who informed me they were carrying or had weapons in the car? I appreiciate the courtesy of them telling me, because they don't have to here, and want to encourage them doing so the next time they meet me or one of my friends. (Note* realize that is if I have merelly stopped them for a traffic reason and not some other investigation).
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Old 02-25-2013, 20:26   #10
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My second question related to this. Given the same situation, but lets say the driver informs you promptly during the stop that he's armed and has a permit. He keeps his hands on the steering wheel at all times. Under what circumstances do you feel it would be appropriate to pull the driver out of the car, and handcuff him?
I typically let them go with a warning. No frisking or handcuffing involved.

Does that make me a good guy?




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Old 02-25-2013, 20:28   #11
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I typically let them go with a warning. No frisking or handcuffing involved.

Does that make me a good guy?

Only if you're wearing your hat
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:54   #12
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I typically let them go with a warning. No frisking or handcuffing involved.

Does that make me a good guy?




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Yes, and in response to the other post, I don't think that makes you a bad guy at all. Does it suck for that guy? Yup.

But I feel like if you pull me over and I don't promptly tell you, I'm an idiot.
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Old 02-25-2013, 20:30   #13
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I don't have to worry about this because carrying a gun is strictly forbidden by law in my jurisdiction. I assume only cops carry a gun lol


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Old 02-25-2013, 20:48   #14
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I always inform the Cop. With my luck, I would get a Cop who is really pissed off that day because someone pulled a gun on him.

So, all have been polite and just order me to keep my hands on the steering wheel. No big deal.
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Old 02-25-2013, 20:51   #15
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Yes, in Texas, you are required to let the police officer who stops you know that you have a CCL and present that with your driver's license when asked for indentification.

I have been known, when I want to take a mental vacation from work to lock up all my gear and pretend that I am a "real person" and not just a number. So, I assume the role of a "civilian" a lot of times when I am off, and it means I have to play by the same rules.

But, I believe in professional courtesy, so even when I am carrying my duty weapon with the requisite gear and credentials, I let whoever decided to stop me know that I am armed for their safety and mine.

It really only is common sense. If you have ever performed a traffic stop, you would understand what is going through their mind and feel empathetic.

I remember a long time ago when I was running a checkpoint, the dog hit on a guy's vehicle. He ended up being legitimate. On secondary inspection, he told me there was a firearm in the vehicle.

I told him just not to go near the vehicle until the inspection was done, and it wasn't a big deal. He seemed nervous about it. I reassured him that unless there was a crime comitted it wouldn't be an issue.

He went on his way.

LEO's aren't anti-gun, they just like a head's up when one is in play.

When it was all said and done we shook hands and found out we were both NRA members.

I appreciated him letting me know. I make sure anyone conducting a traffic stop on me also has the same courtesy.

I have had some interesting experiences being pulled over.

I was in an unmarked prisoner van, and had just arrested someone at a probation and parole office. We were unmarked.

My partner, since deceased, said, "What the heck is this guy doing?"

A State Trooper took interest in our vehicle and lit us up.

I told him, "Well, let's pull over and see what he wants."

We pull over, and sure enough, he wanted us.

I told my partner to cant the wheels, opne the window and to put his hands on the steering wheel.

I was sitting shotgun, so I put my hands up on the dash.

The look on his face was priceless when he came up on the driver's side door.

He just ran into two people who knew how to assume the position.

Once he figured out who we were, and what we were doing, you could see him noticibly relax.

He chuckled, patted the driver's door and was on his way.

A little courtesy on a stop goes a long way. LEO's want to know whether you are armed, why, and where the firearm is. They like to go home to their families after the shift is over.

So, if you get stopped. Don't get silly, don't blow a gasket. If you are calm and respectful, it goes a long way.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:07   #16
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LEO's aren't anti-gun, they just like a head's up when one is in play.
I used to believe that until recently. Though I do believe most are ok with it.

Illinois is on the virge of getting concealed carry. I was talking to an officer who works for a nearby village about it while we were in the same court room one day. He said if CCW passes in Illinois, he'll treat every citizen encounter on the road like a felony traffic stop and have his gun drawn. He said he'll treat every person like they're armed. Period. Point blank said that citizens aren't smart enough to handle guns.

I was pretty shocked but I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

And then he got all pissed off at me for asking "isnt' it a smart policy to assume everyone is armed NOW?"
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:22   #17
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Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
I used to believe that until recently. Though I do believe most are ok with it.

Illinois is on the virge of getting concealed carry. I was talking to an officer who works for a nearby village about it while we were in the same court room one day. He said if CCW passes in Illinois, he'll treat every citizen encounter on the road like a felony traffic stop and have his gun drawn. He said he'll treat every person like they're armed. Period. Point blank said that citizens aren't smart enough to handle guns.

I was pretty shocked but I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

And then he got all pissed off at me for asking "isnt' it a smart policy to assume everyone is armed NOW?"
Our recently retired state police area commander is against citizen CCW. I belong to a service organization with another long retired state police commander and the local city police chief. Both have mentioned that to me and it surprised me. Every other cop I've known or dealt with in my area is very much pro-carry.
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Old 02-26-2013, 16:22   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
I used to believe that until recently. Though I do believe most are ok with it.

Illinois is on the virge of getting concealed carry. I was talking to an officer who works for a nearby village about it while we were in the same court room one day. He said if CCW passes in Illinois, he'll treat every citizen encounter on the road like a felony traffic stop and have his gun drawn. He said he'll treat every person like they're armed. Period. Point blank said that citizens aren't smart enough to handle guns.

I was pretty shocked but I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

And then he got all pissed off at me for asking "isnt' it a smart policy to assume everyone is armed NOW?"
Why doesn't he already? Does he expect the bad guys to wear black hats, and have a sign too? IMHO, unprofessional.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:14   #19
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Originally Posted by razdog76 View Post
Why doesn't he already? Does he expect the bad guys to wear black hats, and have a sign too? IMHO, unprofessional.
I don't know.

I know some of his history as an officer, and not all of it's good. Maybe the two issues are related.
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Old 02-25-2013, 21:04   #20
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Here is example of a perfect traffic stop from my civilian's point of view...
Officer: I clocked you at XX mph in a YY mph zone. May I see your license and registration please.
Me (handing him my license, registration and carry permit): Here you are sir. Just to let you know, I have a concealed weapon permit and I'm carrying right now.
Officer: Where is your gun?
Me: In my back pocket.
Officer: Well, just let it stay there (hands me the speeding ticket).
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