Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-12-2013, 14:57   #1
G27GenFour
American
 
G27GenFour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 57
Home intruder shot from 20 feet away, keeps charging...

Wow... just heard a report of a local homeowner who heard an intruder in his home at 4:00 a.m., went outside his bedroom, his wife in the bedroom behind him, door closed, and spots the intruder down the hallway. He tells the guy to freeze and the bad guy charges. Homeowner shoots from 20 or so feet away and doesn't know he hit the intruder; intruder keeps charging and covers the ground quickly. They engage in a struggle -- no more shots fired - and the HO regains control of the situation and manages to hold the guy there. Police arrive minutes later and only when they turn the perp over do they realize he's been hit in the abdomen. Homeowner couldn't even believe he'd hit the guy; the intruder apparently showed zero signs of being hit. A .40 caliber gun, by the way.Toxicology reports are not in yet, I hear. Wow.
G27GenFour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 15:08   #2
imSteve
NRA Benefactor
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Round Rock, Texas
Posts: 43
I took a tactical handgun class where the instructor once was a military police and indicated he ran into this problem several times with people that was high on pcp. He said 2 rounds in the pelvic region stopped 'em all in their tracks.

I hope I never have to find out if it works.

He had us do drills 2 rounds center mass & 2 rounds pelvic region.
imSteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 15:12   #3
brboyer
Senior Member
 
brboyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tampa Bay Florida
Posts: 1,359
Not at all surprised.

That's why you keep shooting until the threat stops!
brboyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 12:00   #4
poikilotrm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by brboyer View Post
Not at all surprised.

That's why you keep shooting until the threat stops!
Yep. I train for mag dumps.
poikilotrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 19:26   #5
coachrowsey
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Best hotel rooms in the USA
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by brboyer View Post
Not at all surprised.

That's why you keep shooting until the threat stops!
A BIG +1. This one shot thing is for the movies. Doesn't happen like that (for the most part) in real life. Center mass & shoot till the threat is done.
__________________
"Blessed be the Lord my strength,which teacheth my hands to war and my fingers to fight".
Psalms 144:1 KJV
De Oppresso Liber.
coachrowsey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 01:12   #6
TX OMFS
Lifetime Membership
Right wing nut
 
TX OMFS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by imSteve View Post
I took a tactical handgun class where the instructor once was a military police and indicated he ran into this problem several times with people that was high on pcp. He said 2 rounds in the pelvic region stopped 'em all in their tracks.

I hope I never have to find out if it works.

He had us do drills 2 rounds center mass & 2 rounds pelvic region.
The chest or upper abdomen are anatomically much more likely to stop someone. Lungs, heart, liver, and spleen bleed more than anything in the pelvis.
__________________
“Men do not differ much about what things they call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable.” - G. K. Chesterton
TX OMFS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 05:46   #7
edcrosbys
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: VA
Posts: 1,118
Quote:
Originally Posted by TX OMFS View Post
The chest or upper abdomen are anatomically much more likely to stop someone. Lungs, heart, liver, and spleen bleed more than anything in the pelvis.
I've read the pelvic girdle should be very effective at stopping. You have the base of the spine, and a few nice arteries and veins for either the projectile or bone fragments to hit. Not to mention a high chance of mechanically slowing someone down.

I always go back to deer hunting. I've had a double lung/heart shot with a 50 cal muzzleloader that ran a ways before realizing she was dead.

Any link to a news story for this?
edcrosbys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 13:52   #8
TX OMFS
Lifetime Membership
Right wing nut
 
TX OMFS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by edcrosbys View Post
I've read the pelvic girdle should be very effective at stopping. You have the base of the spine, and a few nice arteries and veins for either the projectile or bone fragments to hit. Not to mention a high chance of mechanically slowing someone down.

I always go back to deer hunting. I've had a double lung/heart shot with a 50 cal muzzleloader that ran a ways before realizing she was dead.

Any link to a news story for this?
My mistake I was responding to the post about shooting in the pelvic region. The pelvis is the cavity surrounded by the pelvic girdle. The pelvis itself doesn't have much in the way of vital structures.

Shooting someone in the pelvic girdle would most likely stop their forward motion. As I think about it that may be the best way to physically "stop" someone. They are unlikely to be incapacitated or made unconscious by the wound -- they could keep shooting at you. A pelvic fracture can lead to a slow bleed that could lead to unconsciousness over maybe an hour's time. So, even if they stop they're still a threat.

A shot to the liver or spleen will make someone bleed out but over several minutes and may not be particularly effective at stopping them until they pass out after several minutes.

A shot to the lungs and/or heart would render somone unconscious and kill faster than abdominal organ damage but may not stop their forward progress as fast as a pelvic shot.

The brain is the best place to stop everything.

A lung shot is nice b/c a deflated lung is both painful and extremely frightening. It causes the sensation of suffocation and really makes the victim stop thinking about anything else.

No links. I'm a surgeon who has treated and seen lots of trauma and GSW's. In summary, the 2 COM and 1 head or pelvis seems like a good drill to stop and incapacitate someone.
__________________
“Men do not differ much about what things they call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable.” - G. K. Chesterton
TX OMFS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2013, 12:01   #9
edcrosbys
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: VA
Posts: 1,118
TX OMFS -

Thanks for the info. I'm more inclined to believe you're info than what I've read elsewhere.

I was more looking for a link to the original story. I know quite a few folks that think bullets are magical and stop everything instantly. I've used some of the older stories as proof, but this one hits home as being a situation they could easily see themselves in.

Thanks!
edcrosbys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2013, 17:17   #10
spcwes
Senior Member
 
spcwes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by TX OMFS View Post
My mistake I was responding t
Shooting someone in the pelvic girdle would most likely stop their forward motion. As I think about it that may be the best way to physically "stop" someone. They are unlikely to be incapacitated or made unconscious by the wound -- they could keep shooting at you. A pelvic fracture can lead to a slow bleed that could lead to unconsciousness over maybe an hour's time. So, even if they stop they're still a threat.

A lung shot is nice b/c a deflated lung is both painful and extremely frightening. It causes the sensation of suffocation and really makes the victim stop thinking about anything else.
My understanding is that hitting pelvic bones with a bullet could be the absolutely most painful area to be hit or one of them but that being said someone requiring a shot to the pelvis might not feel the pain but breaking it will stop forward movement. Any solid shot could cause a person to go unconscious to be honest as well.

Not bringing the word terminal into this conversation (other than right there) with just getting someone to stop moving toward you this drill is solid to practice. Its a larger target, does not bob around like someones head and should be as easy to hit as COM hits.

But shooting until the threat ends would be the most important thing to teach a shooter that does not get to shoot as often as they might want to or should.
__________________
"We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American perception that each individual is accountable for his/her actions." -Ronald Reagan-
spcwes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2013, 10:10   #11
F350
Senior Member
 
F350's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Colorado Western Slope
Posts: 1,932
Quote:
Originally Posted by edcrosbys View Post
I've read the pelvic girdle should be very effective at stopping. You have the base of the spine, and a few nice arteries and veins for either the projectile or bone fragments to hit. Not to mention a high chance of mechanically slowing someone down.

I always go back to deer hunting. I've had a double lung/heart shot with a 50 cal muzzleloader that ran a ways before realizing she was dead.

Any link to a news story for this?
I suffered a broken pelvis in a fall off a ladder, it was a fairly mild break, but let me tell you it is flipping impossible to move your legs when the pelvis is broken and god awful painful to boot. Stopping a BG charge with pelvis hits does not depend on blood loss, what you do is take the support structure out from under them.

Before the fall I figured on 2 to the chest then go for the head. After laying in bed nearly a week before being able to even walk to the bathroom I rethought that. The main interest is stopping the charge not killing, I decided 2 to the chest then a mag dump in the pelvis.

I have a video titled "DEADLY EFFECTS; What bullets do to bodies" featuring Dr Fackler head of the army's wound ballistics laboratory at the time (late 70s) VERY eye opening.

Last edited by F350; 02-28-2013 at 10:14..
F350 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2013, 11:11   #12
spcwes
Senior Member
 
spcwes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by TX OMFS View Post
The chest or upper abdomen are anatomically much more likely to stop someone. Lungs, heart, liver, and spleen bleed more than anything in the pelvis.
Training around shooting the pelvis area is not by design to cause them to bleed out or hit major organs. It was designed to take the legs out from under the person. If you shatter pelvic bones the legs can't function as the legs will no longer be able to rotate in the sockets so to say thus the person goes down and stops moving forward.

I can't remember the actual name of the training but its called the mozzembi drill or something like but was designed around a particular incident of enemies attacking that were high on drugs preventing bullets into the COM from stopping attacks unless spine was struck.

By striking the pelvic area they stopped the forward movement of the attackers thus preventing good guys from being chopped up with large knives.
__________________
"We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American perception that each individual is accountable for his/her actions." -Ronald Reagan-
spcwes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 15:19   #13
moonwilson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 239
Scary stuff. He pulled the trigger once and then waited for the bullet to take effect? Was there something that kept him from shooting the guy a few more times before he closed the distance? Was he shooting FMJ range ammo?

I wouldn't rely on a single .40 cal shot stopping a bad guy. Even if you get him smack dab in the center of the chest he might not stop right away. Even a .44 magnum might not stop somebody if they're crazy enough.
moonwilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 16:03   #14
G27GenFour
American
 
G27GenFour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonwilson View Post
Scary stuff. He pulled the trigger once and then waited for the bullet to take effect? Was there something that kept him from shooting the guy a few more times before he closed the distance? Was he shooting FMJ range ammo?

I wouldn't rely on a single .40 cal shot stopping a bad guy. Even if you get him smack dab in the center of the chest he might not stop right away. Even a .44 magnum might not stop somebody if they're crazy enough.
All those questions are so far unanswered, but I sure hope they tell us more...
G27GenFour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 15:45   #15
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 36,832
That is the rule, not the exception. If you thought they would fall down and you'd know they were hit, you watch too many movies. I've seen a guy who took a .44 mag through the bone in his leg, pour gasoline on the shooters car, light it and sit down to have a cigarette by the time I got there. Seen a guy shot multiple times with a .30-30 rifle sitting on the ground drinking a beer when I pulled up, but died before he got to the hospital. Another one, shot 8 times with 10mm and .40 S&W, including 2 dead center of the head (forehead and inside corner of eye), still managed to pass the 21-foot gap the police were keeping when he first charged.
__________________
Quote:
This is the internet - you will never learn to shoot here.
- Me, 2014.

Last edited by Bren; 02-12-2013 at 15:46..
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 17:49   #16
SpringerTGO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
That is the rule, not the exception. If you thought they would fall down and you'd know they were hit, you watch too many movies. I've seen a guy who took a .44 mag through the bone in his leg, pour gasoline on the shooters car, light it and sit down to have a cigarette by the time I got there. Seen a guy shot multiple times with a .30-30 rifle sitting on the ground drinking a beer when I pulled up, but died before he got to the hospital. Another one, shot 8 times with 10mm and .40 S&W, including 2 dead center of the head (forehead and inside corner of eye), still managed to pass the 21-foot gap the police were keeping when he first charged.
That's why NY enacted the 7 round rule. You've got to put a limit on how many rounds a civilian can put into an attacker to make it a little more fair.
SpringerTGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 08:23   #17
OctoberRust
Anti-Federalist
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
That's why NY enacted the 7 round rule. You've got to put a limit on how many rounds a civilian can put into an attacker to make it a little more fair.

OctoberRust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 11:36   #18
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 9,988
I suspect a fair number of people who aren't privy to the actual results of people sustaining gunshot wounds may tend to have an unrealistic perception of the "effectiveness" of any particular handgun caliber & ammunition combination. Too much exposure to online video gaming, as well as TV & Movie special effects and scripted stunts.

This sort of misplaced confidence in handguns & handgun ammunition might be sometimes distract some owners/users from considering issues such as the handgun shooter being able to act quickly & effectively, using good tactics and shooting skills, as well as developing the mindset necessary for effectively functioning under high stress (mental & physical) conditions.

It's a handgun ...
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 02-13-2013 at 12:57..
fastbolt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 13:01   #19
GlockinNJ
Senior Member
 
GlockinNJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: PRONJ
Posts: 2,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
That's why NY enacted the 7 round rule. You've got to put a limit on how many rounds a civilian can put into an attacker to make it a little more fair.
That is not even funny.
GlockinNJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 17:19   #20
Paul53
Geezer Boomer
 
Paul53's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Corner of walk & Don't Walk
Posts: 4,235
Adrenalin is a powerful drug the body dumps into the bloodstream in "fight or flight" scenarios. Does wonders to help survival until the body can't compensate anymore.

Add recreational drugs to the mix and it's a chemistry experiment!

Keep shooting till they drop is wise advice. The majority of GSW patients I've treated had multiple wounds. Aim dead center in the chest, hit the heart, spine ideally, lungs too.
__________________
Every living human has DNA that traces back to Africa. All the wars are about differences we've invented or chosen.
Paul53 is online now   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 23:11.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 902
218 Members
684 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31