GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-07-2013, 17:05   #1
jeffreybehr
GAPist #1944
 
jeffreybehr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ USA
Posts: 774
357SIG--Just posted results of expansion and velocity tests...

...of Speer Gold Dot125s #54234.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1468509
post #13.
__________________
An EDC S&W M&P .45ACP. A dozen Glocks sold. NRA life member.
"If lethal force is warranted and appropriate under the circumstances, the" (defender) "must shoot until the threat ceases." Pinizzotto, Kern, and Davis, FBI Academy.
jeffreybehr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 18:31   #2
Tiro Fijo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,103
Why do stupid water jug testing when scientific & objective testing is at your fingertips?


http://le.atk.com/resources/videos.aspx
Tiro Fijo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 19:09   #3
jeffreybehr
GAPist #1944
 
jeffreybehr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ USA
Posts: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Why do stupid water jug testing when scientific & objective testing is at your fingertips?


http://le.atk.com/resources/videos.aspx
My my, pls tell us how you REALLY think!

-------------------------

I test lots of bullets this way, and even if it's not as scientific as testing in, say, 10% ballistic jelatin, my results are highly comparable to each other. Bullets that come apart in water I do NOT want to use for personal defence. Bullets that expand correctly, stay together, and retain virtually all their weight I'm happy to carry for PD.

--------------------------

Now go cool off and try to do as your mother told you--if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything...or maybe she didn't tell you and that's why you're such a arrogant grouch.
__________________
An EDC S&W M&P .45ACP. A dozen Glocks sold. NRA life member.
"If lethal force is warranted and appropriate under the circumstances, the" (defender) "must shoot until the threat ceases." Pinizzotto, Kern, and Davis, FBI Academy.
jeffreybehr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 20:36   #4
Tiro Fijo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreybehr View Post
...Bullets that come apart in water I do NOT want to use for personal defence. Bullets that expand correctly, stay together, and retain virtually all their weight I'm happy to carry for PD...

And you base that on what? Reading tea leaves? Water will means nothing unless you're trying to prevent Aquaman from molesting you.
Tiro Fijo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 20:51   #5
jeffreybehr
GAPist #1944
 
jeffreybehr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ USA
Posts: 774
Tiro, how 'bout for now on you just ignore my postings...sort of leave them to us idiots here on GlockTalk who feel there may be some useful info here.

Bye!
__________________
An EDC S&W M&P .45ACP. A dozen Glocks sold. NRA life member.
"If lethal force is warranted and appropriate under the circumstances, the" (defender) "must shoot until the threat ceases." Pinizzotto, Kern, and Davis, FBI Academy.
jeffreybehr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 13:08   #6
Tiro Fijo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffreybehr View Post
Tiro, how 'bout for now on you just ignore my postings...sort of leave them to us idiots here on GlockTalk who feel there may be some useful info here.

Bye!

OK, Range Gomer. Keep shooting your "scientific" milk jugs and watch your "6" for Aquaman!!
Tiro Fijo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 20:25   #7
bac1023
Senior Member
 
bac1023's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 87,376
Thanks for the info.
__________________
.

1911 Buyer's Guide
bac1023 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 21:14   #8
LASTRESORT20
LongTerm-Guy
 
LASTRESORT20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 6,572
`Good stuff Jeff! Thanks
LASTRESORT20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 21:29   #9
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
Jeffb, have you done any work with 357 Sig using the all cooper light wait bullets?
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 22:17   #10
jeffreybehr
GAPist #1944
 
jeffreybehr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ USA
Posts: 774
rusty, search for my posts, read the subject lines, and you'll find lots of post about the Barnes TAC-XP bullets.
Caliber Corner
__________________
An EDC S&W M&P .45ACP. A dozen Glocks sold. NRA life member.
"If lethal force is warranted and appropriate under the circumstances, the" (defender) "must shoot until the threat ceases." Pinizzotto, Kern, and Davis, FBI Academy.
jeffreybehr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 03:23   #11
packinaglock
John 3:16 <><
 
packinaglock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Loxahatchee Fl
Posts: 4,616
Interesting, thanks.
__________________
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
packinaglock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 07:09   #12
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 15,860
Great expansion!
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 08:57   #13
M1fuzz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 202
Tiro, do you post anything positive or just sit around and gripe about everyone and what they do, what they carry, and what they try to share with everyone on the forum. Cripes.. now go back downstairs at mom's house and start eating your cereal sitting in your obgyn chair with a Captain Crunch hat on!
M1fuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 09:08   #14
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 15,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by M1fuzz View Post
Tiro, do you post anything positive or just sit around and gripe about everyone and what they do, what they carry, and what they try to share with everyone on the forum. Cripes.. now go back downstairs at mom's house and start eating your cereal sitting in your obgyn chair with a Captain Crunch hat on!
Thanks for the info - I wasn't that aware.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 10:48   #15
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
JeffB, thanks. I am in retail business. For better or worse penetration is always on my mind.
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 10:52   #16
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
Well maybe in the back of my mind.
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 11:51   #17
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 15,860
I wonder how they knew whether or not the all-copper alloy bullets would expand so well?
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 16:26   #18
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
Most bullets can be found in the various forums or youtube. Some of the testers you learn to respect their results.

Then the home boy water jug test is just an easy way to confirm that your gun does a good job with the bullet. After a while you end up with a number of bullets that you can compare the expansion and number of jugs penetrated to the testers results for the same bullets. You then have a good idea if you can use the water jug test a a guide to rounds you want to carry.

I am responsible for the rounds and carry and I own the bullet where ever it ends up. I do get a kick out of shooting water jugs. Must be the twelve year old in me
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 12:45   #19
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 15,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
Most bullets can be found in the various forums or youtube. Some of the testers you learn to respect their results.

Then the home boy water jug test is just an easy way to confirm that your gun does a good job with the bullet. After a while you end up with a number of bullets that you can compare the expansion and number of jugs penetrated to the testers results for the same bullets. You then have a good idea if you can use the water jug test a a guide to rounds you want to carry.

I am responsible for the rounds and carry and I own the bullet where ever it ends up. I do get a kick out of shooting water jugs. Must be the twelve year old in me
And most every shooter has a water jug . . .
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 14:16   #20
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
Thank-You for your tests. Shooting into water jugs is fun but does not give you an accurate picture(ballistics) of what
performance you actually get from any one ammo. When shooting into water the water pretty much acts like a solid wall-thus giving you false expansion readings and false
penetration readings. Why do you think people jump off a bridge? Because the water they are jumping into pretty much acts like a wall thus making their jump very terminal.

Shooting in gel is not totally accurate but much more accurate then shooting water jugs. The gel has a give & take response (similar to the human body) giving you both an accurate expansion reading & pentration reading. But
remember no gel test totally copies the affect of ammo shot into
a human body.

Last edited by Coffee Dog; 02-12-2013 at 17:11..
Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 19:41   #21
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,449
I agree that water jugs aren't scientific, but by pure definition neither are calibrated white lab coat tests scientific. Calibrated jell is based upon pig tissue that closely resembles human tissue but isn't actually human tissue. Only testing through human subjects will yield more accurate information and we all know that isn't going to happen until the New Stalinist Party takes over America.

I like the backyard tests as well as the white coat lab guy tests because it provides a way to compare the different results with specific ammos. Once I have satisfied myself that the specific ammo performs as advertised in all tests I will shoot that ammo to ensure complete gun/ammo reliability. Since there's no ironclad guarantees with anything in life a person makes his/her choices on the best information available.

The best recommendations for ammo performance comes from the "street" results in the aftermath of documented LEO encounters with criminals, from what I have learned, combined with the individual's testing of that ammo in his/her gun/ammo combination.
__________________
Rocket Scientist

Last edited by unit1069; 02-12-2013 at 19:43..
unit1069 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 23:07   #22
spcwes
Senior Member
 
spcwes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I agree that water jugs aren't scientific, but by pure definition neither are calibrated white lab coat tests scientific. Calibrated jell is based upon pig tissue that closely resembles human tissue but isn't actually human tissue. Only testing through human subjects will yield more accurate information and we all know that isn't going to happen until the New Stalinist Party takes over America.

I like the backyard tests as well as the white coat lab guy tests because it provides a way to compare the different results with specific ammos. Once I have satisfied myself that the specific ammo performs as advertised in all tests I will shoot that ammo to ensure complete gun/ammo reliability. Since there's no ironclad guarantees with anything in life a person makes his/her choices on the best information available.

The best recommendations for ammo performance comes from the "street" results in the aftermath of documented LEO encounters with criminals, from what I have learned, combined with the individual's testing of that ammo in his/her gun/ammo combination.
^ This
The gel doesn't test the hydraulic effect of a bullet either. People put way to much stock in that gel test. The tests were never supposed to test the bullet damage to a human, they were designed to test bullet performance in a substance that is like tissue.
__________________
"We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American perception that each individual is accountable for his/her actions." -Ronald Reagan-
spcwes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2013, 23:44   #23
Ak.Hiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Homer Alaska
Posts: 2,296
Over the years I have tested tons of hard cast and FMJ handgun bullets in wood. Heavy weight hardcast bullets cut straight through and make big exit holes. Flat point Cor Bon Penetrators will as well and are even tougher. Sierra 300 grain .45 bullets really do have a hard core as do their 300 grain .44's. They will penetrate similar to a hard cast in a handgun if you prefer a jacketed bullet in your big bore handgun. The original Freedom Arms 300 grain jacketed bullet for the 454 is even tougher than the Sierra. A 200 grain 357 Magnum hardcast running at 1200+ will give a good 44 Magnum a run for the money as far as penetration goes. Sometimes folks just like figuring things out for themselves. Read Elmer Keith's books and he enjoyed bullet testing as well. And those Keith bullets will go deep and straight as well.

Last edited by Ak.Hiker; 02-12-2013 at 23:44..
Ak.Hiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 08:45   #24
Dreamaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Outer Space
Posts: 633
Shooting water jugs IS scientific actually. If it is a test that can be easily controlled and repeated it is scientific. It allows people to compare differences between one or two variables accurately for relatively low cost. What it is NOT perhaps, is as others are stating above very representative about what happens to a human body. There is however a correlation. Ballistics aren't as complicated as some people here would have you believe. With hollow points, generally, higher velocity yields more trauma, with larger secondary cavities. To a point this will be at the cost of penetration distance. After a certain point, the bullet will "over expand" and penetration will start to increase again... as we continue to increase the velocity, the bullet will begin to fragment. (Another place I am often scratching my head as many on this forum says that is "bad" because the bullet is "failing"... as long as penetration is sufficient, there is no way in Haydes I would call that a failure.) In handguns, that's about the end of it, because it's very difficult to get the velocity up to rifle speeds with a 4" barrel, not to mention the recoil becomes unwieldy.
Dreamaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 15:34   #25
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 15,860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak.Hiker View Post
Over the years I have tested tons of hard cast and FMJ handgun bullets in wood. Heavy weight hardcast bullets cut straight through and make big exit holes. Flat point Cor Bon Penetrators will as well and are even tougher. Sierra 300 grain .45 bullets really do have a hard core as do their 300 grain .44's. They will penetrate similar to a hard cast in a handgun if you prefer a jacketed bullet in your big bore handgun. The original Freedom Arms 300 grain jacketed bullet for the 454 is even tougher than the Sierra. A 200 grain 357 Magnum hardcast running at 1200+ will give a good 44 Magnum a run for the money as far as penetration goes. Sometimes folks just like figuring things out for themselves. Read Elmer Keith's books and he enjoyed bullet testing as well. And those Keith bullets will go deep and straight as well.
Bullet casting sure does increase the options.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:12.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,300
328 Members
972 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42