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Old 12-25-2012, 12:09   #1
ithaca_deerslayer
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If the police need it, I need it.

My own my mother, on a Christmas phone call, asks my opinion of assault weapons. After explaining to her that there is no such thing and that they just look like army guns, and describing the difference between automatic army guns versus semi-automatic civilian guns. . .

She asks, "Why do you need one of these so-called assault weapons anyway?!"

My final convincing response to her was, "Why do the police need them?" To defend themselves from bad guys, she said. "Well, that's the same reason I need them." Oh, that's true, she said, as if a light bulb had gone on.

Yup, I continued, the same bad guys the police face are the same bad guys any civilian might need to fight off. Whatever the police need for defense, I need too.

Please feel free to pass this on: If the police need "assault weapons" and high capacity magazines, we need them too

Edited to add:
Obvioulsly it should be undertood the context is in when the bad guys come looking for us, and not about us civilians going out looking for bad guys

Last edited by ithaca_deerslayer; 12-25-2012 at 12:27..
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:11   #2
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Many police departments do not issue or allow rifles.
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Old 12-25-2012, 13:24   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BodymoreMurderland View Post
Many police departments do not issue or allow rifles.
Yes they do.
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Old 12-25-2012, 13:30   #4
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Yes they do.
No many departments don't including the 8th largest police dept. in the country which I work for.
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Old 12-25-2012, 13:35   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BodymoreMurderland View Post
No many departments don't including the 8th largest police dept. in the country which I work for.
Not one officer has a rifle? I find that hard to believe. No SWAT team?
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:32   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BodymoreMurderland

Many police departments do not issue or allow rifles
Quote:
Originally Posted by BodymoreMurderland View Post
No many departments don't including the 8th largest police dept. in the country which I work for.
I guess it would suck to be on your department. Of course after looking at your grid coordinates, it's not surprising they don't allow you to have rifles.

My department has rifles and we carry them in electra-lock racks with our shotguns. Most of the agencies in AK have them.

Of course we have to buy our own. They aren't mandatory, but we do highly encourage officers to obtain and carry them.

I put the officers through a patrol rifle class (I'm also a police firearms instructor) and we train and qualify with them the same as our other firearms.

We pretty much use our ARs exclusively on our serious calls. It's rare the shotguns come out of the rack anymore except for wildlife calls.

With frangible ammo such as Hornady TAP, the rifle is much more precise and safer to use than a shotgun with a bead sight, especially when your distances open a little bit. Plus the rifles have holographic or red dot sights making them faster to pick up and use in low light and Streamlight TLRs mounted on the rails.

In addition, due to my grid coordinates and the big furry wildlife issues we have to confront from May to October, I had to come up with a policy regarding the training, use and carrriage of big game rifles and the ammunition for them. Training isn't really an issue in this area for the most part because most of us already have a lot of experience with hunting rifles and killing stuff. The vast majority of training I have to do is changing the mindset of just grabbing any off-the-shelf junk ammuntion and loading up. I try to stress the importance of using high-end ammo with premium bullets on DLP bear kills. Of course reloads are allowed and the .30-06 is the minimum caliber.

One of the guys carries either a Marlin 1895 in .45-70 with max book handloads or a Ruger Haweye in .35 Whelen Improved. Another uses a .30-06, one a .375 Win. and I ocillate between a Win. M-70 in .375 H&H that I call the sewer pipe and a .30-06.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:52   #7
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Originally Posted by stevelyn View Post
...
We pretty much use our ARs exclusively on our serious calls. It's rare the shotguns come out of the rack anymore except for wildlife calls.

....
What kind of wildlife? Why is the shotgun the choice for wildlife? Is it more reliable for stopping them/it?
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Old 12-25-2012, 16:42   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BodymoreMurderland View Post
Many police departments do not issue or allow rifles.
But their swat teams use them so we need them.
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Old 12-25-2012, 17:21   #9
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Several nations with extremely strict gun control have sky high rates of gun violence. Old Mexico comes to mind. Don't give me that developed nations stuff.

Also Japan is a completely different culture than our country. That might also have something to do with their low rate of gun violence. My Japanese daughter in law says their version of the Mafia has guns, but they don't use them as often.

Just my opinion.
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Old 12-25-2012, 17:48   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caver 60 View Post
Several nations with extremely strict gun control have sky high rates of gun violence. Old Mexico comes to mind. Don't give me that developed nations stuff.

Also Japan is a completely different culture than our country. That might also have something to do with their low rate of gun violence. My Japanese daughter in law says their version of the Mafia has guns, but they don't use them as often.

Just my opinion.
70 years ago the Japanese people were convinced their emperor was a God.
70 years ago their military thought sneak attacking the Americans at Pearl Harbor was a good idea.
Japan is currently described as one of the most racist nations in the world.
We really want to be adopt their philosophy?
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Old 12-25-2012, 17:54   #11
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To the Op
Your argument is about as valid as any others I have heard.
I had the same "discussion" with a fomer Marine. His argument, was that Assault weapons are only used to kill people. That no civilian should be allowed to own one.
My argument was that many of the rifles/handguns in use today-originally designed for military use- are now responsibly used by millions of gun owners for target practice, hunting game.
He was not persuaded. Neither was I.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:50   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norton View Post
70 years ago the Japanese people were convinced their emperor was a God.
70 years ago their military thought sneak attacking the Americans at Pearl Harbor was a good idea.
Japan is currently described as one of the most racist nations in the world.
We really want to be adopt their philosophy?
Japanese girls are "Hawt"
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:44   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caver 60 View Post
Several nations with extremely strict gun control have sky high rates of gun violence. Old Mexico comes to mind. Don't give me that developed nations stuff.

Also Japan is a completely different culture than our country. That might also have something to do with their low rate of gun violence. My Japanese daughter in law says their version of the Mafia has guns, but they don't use them as often.

Just my opinion.
Again, Much of Europe...

We have actual results vs. your opinion on how that would play out here.

I actually agree with you but what you fail to see is, to an on the fence party, who is looking at results vs. the feelings of pro gun people, well, we look like a damned fool in the eyes of most people.

In the face of facts, your untested opinions dont mean much to most people. You must chew on this truth no matter how you feel about the issue, and in particular, how you feel about people who dont see it your way.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:37   #14
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Here's something interesting.

Quote:
Spengler also unloaded rounds into the car of John Ritter, an off-duty police officer, who parked his car in the line of fire. Ritter was wounded by shrapnel from the fusillade.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:27   #15
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I spoke with a leo from a large CT city that just finished doing long shifts in Newtown. During our discussion he flat out told me that he and many fellow officers WILL NOT go into a building to disarm a criminal. They will not risk their life for a Bushmaster.


We need rifles to protect us from the globins that strike fear into a unionized pd.

ps. I do not own a rifle of any type.
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Old 12-27-2012, 13:43   #16
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Quote:
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Again, Much of Europe...

We have actual results vs. your opinion on how that would play out here.

I actually agree with you but what you fail to see is, to an on the fence party, who is looking at results vs. the feelings of pro gun people, well, we look like a damned fool in the eyes of most people.

In the face of facts, your untested opinions dont mean much to most people. You must chew on this truth no matter how you feel about the issue, and in particular, how you feel about people who dont see it your way.
That fact might be explained by the U.S. having such a high percentage of kids living in a single parent (mostly mothers only) household. Over 70% of black kids. I remember reading that if you took single parent childhood out of the equation, the prison population would be equal among whites and blacks. It would make an interesting study.

That might not be what the liberal would want to hear.
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Old 12-27-2012, 13:38   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BodymoreMurderland View Post
Many police departments do not issue or allow rifles.
As with anything else, some people are slow to change. The majority have come around to seeing the versatility and increased benefit of a patrol rifle over a shotgun. Both have their place though.
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Old 12-29-2012, 20:59   #18
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Many do.
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:09   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BodymoreMurderland View Post
Many police departments do not issue or allow rifles.
No statistic I can find numbers on but all departments I know people in or, know of or work with do allow or issue rifles and the largest departments in my area require they be carried at all time in the vehicle. Some of them are select fire as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BodymoreMurderland View Post
No many departments don't including the 8th largest police dept. in the country which I work for.
Yes many departments issue rifles or allow the carry of rifles. Because your department does not is not the deciding factor on others that do. And whats funny is I am pretty sure your department uses rifles whether your patrol officers have them or not.....
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:17   #20
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I dont disagree, but it is an argument with a lot of holes in it.

Do you need handcuffs? Do you need the ability to pull people over? Do you need to wear body armor all day? Do you need the legal obligation to act in all crimes you see? ...and a bunch of other things.

Lets be honest, the Police, Doctors, Dentists, Locksmiths...and a lot of other professions do things you cant and probably shouldnt.

Again, I agree with you but poeple on all sides focus on the guns. When was the last time you wore body armor all day long? When was the last time you went to a driving skills class? When was the last time you went to a class to learn how to deescalate violent situations with your words? (Point being here, again, people tend to focus on the guns when there is so much far more likely that they neglect)
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:23   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post

................Do you need handcuffs? ....................
Only if she's in an especially "naughty" mood!!








Sorry...couldn't help myself...
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:36   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
Again, I agree with you but poeple on all sides focus on the guns. When was the last time you wore body armor all day long? When was the last time you went to a driving skills class? When was the last time you went to a class to learn how to deescalate violent situations with your words? (Point being here, again, people tend to focus on the guns when there is so much far more likely that they neglect)
When was the last time you wore body armor all day long?
never but then again statistically most cops never get shot at or have to shoot there guns in their careers. So you don't need it either.

When was the last time you went to a driving skills
class?

Last week

When was the last time you went to a class to learn how to deescalate violent situations with your words?

October.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:51   #23
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I think the whole point that RED was making is that joe citizen could quite possibly face the very same criminal that the police feel a AR15 is needed to defend against. Sure, there is a whole lot greater risk when someone faces criminals for a living but the point is still valid. Most people feel a strong obligation to defend themselves which was the singular point.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:54   #24
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Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
I think the whole point that RED was making is that joe citizen could quite possibly face the very same criminal that the police feel a AR15 is needed to defend against. Sure, there is a whole lot greater risk when someone faces criminals for a living but the point is still valid. Most people feel a strong obligation to defend themselves which was the singular point.
But, in my opinion the AR-15 should have the fun button, not a ban on the fun button, otherwise the who intent of the 2A is moot.

The AR-15 is a Military Weapon adopted by LEOs and civilians alike.

So, the OP, missed the point entirely.
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:16   #25
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The AR-15 is a Military Weapon adopted by LEOs and civilians alike.

So, the OP, missed the point entirely.
The AR is the civilian version of a Military weapon. "A"s are for civilian use. "M"s are for military. Who missed the point?
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