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Old 12-22-2012, 07:33   #1
G29SFWTF
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Best 10mm vs. vest?

I know that a 10mm won't penetrate level 3a Kevlar but which round would hurt the most?

220gr hardcast because it is the heaviest?

Or 155 TMJ because it has the most muzzle energy and won't deform as easily on the vest surface. Or something else?

There have been at least 3 shootings where the BG had armor. Tyler Texas, the CO theater, and Newtown. I have started carrying my rounds staggered in the mag, half 155gr XTP and half 155gr TMJ so if the need ever arises I would have some rounds that might punch deep into a vest and at least buy some time

(carrying Underwood ammo in a G29.)
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:43   #2
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the one that delivers the most energy.

also the nutbags in colorado and conn. did not have ballistic body armor on.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:49   #3
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I know there are a TON of variables involved and every situation in different....but would a hot round from a 10mm have the potential to inflict enough pain/injury to stop an attacker?

Put another way, if one shot an attacker at 10 feet COM with a Underwood 155 TMJ would it break bones? Or just leave a nasty bruise for later?
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:16   #4
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the one that delivers the most energy.

also the nutbags in colorado and conn. did not have ballistic body armor on.
The dark knight nutbag as far as I recall DID have ballistic body armor on.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:28   #5
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The dark knight nutbag as far as I recall DID have ballistic body armor on.
It was a "tactical" vest. The media called it "bullet proof", which was a lie.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:46   #6
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It was a "tactical" vest. The media called it "bullet proof", which was a lie.
Interesting - I didn't know it, but based on how many other things that I have witnessed them incorrectly report, this does not surprise me.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:45   #7
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My carry round is a 135 hp @ 1700 fps average measured at 5y (15') from the muzzle. Yep, I load my own.

This is out of my G29 with a 4.45" KKM barrel.

This load is reported to be less than the SAAMI pressure
limits of the cartridge, but I'm not going to spend the $$$ getting it tested. I have no qualms shooting this one the way I have loaded.

The recoil is a quick impulse - nothing like that slow, pushy impulse typical of a .40 service round or the one that is just like it on steroids from the 200gr. 1250 fps rounds. Much quicker and easier follow up on this one. Very good precision as well - can hold 1-2" groups @ 25y with it from the bench.

I have not tested it on soft armor. I doubt it would penetrate commonly used soft armor.

I know it will not penetrate a 6" Aspen tree, but a hot 200 grainer will blow right through the tree. The hot 200 will not stand a chance against soft armor.

If that bullet had a tungsten carbide core, it most definitely would penetrate any soft armor, but it's probably not gonna pierce hard plate (steel or ceramic).

Obviously, AP ammo in a handgun is against the law. That being said, 7.62x25 ammo will penetrate some soft armor (along with some armored helmets). That is ball ammo.

One guy has made a 7.62x25 conversion, but it is a complicated project and he does not have it on the commercial market.

If there was a 135gr. round nose fmj bullet available for the 10/.40, @ 1700 fps it would easily out-penetrate the 7.62x25. I've checked around in the past and I can't find one.

Good point on the 2 to the chest and 1 to the head. That's probably the best thing going.

The round I use is the best all-around 10mm ammo I have tested. The 10 ring and 10mm reloading glocktalk community has tested the 135 nosler and most of us agree that the bullet is a tad soft to run at the higher 10mm velocities, and it will not hold together in one piece, but many of us have seen various tests with it & those of us who have seen these tests will not doubt that the round has devastating affects beyond what the heavier bullets are capable of.

The only caveat to this is barrier penetration - this round is not the best for shooting through walls, glass, etc. It lacks the momentum of the heavier bullets. Choose the right tool for the job.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:15   #8
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you can not count on pain as method for stopping an attacker. the only things that works are involuntary actions.

for instance, if an attacker is on PCP pain will not stop them because they dont feel it, if their legs are broken they cant walk, though they will still try.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:30   #9
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Solution... Head shot.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:52   #10
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Shooting someone in the head who doesn't want to be shot anywhere is harder than headshotting a B27 target at the range though. And if you miss, you've alerted him to your presence, informed him that you have a gun and that you're not a very good shot.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:16   #11
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Solution... Head shot.
+100 -This, or pelvic girdle.
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Old 12-22-2012, 14:22   #12
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Solution... Head shot.
I think the impact of a couple 165 grains in the vest might buy you some time to get a better shot. Exactly the reason we practice 2 to the body and 1 to the head.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:40   #13
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Staggering rounds is never a good idea as it can affect function of the gun. You're better off carrying a mag with different rounds in it. Don't worry about inflicting "pain". Worry about your accuracy and shot placement in the face of tremendous stress. Twenty five yards from an active shooter will feel like 25". You better be good at stress management.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:18   #14
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Staggering rounds is never a good idea as it can affect function of the gun. You're better off carrying a mag with different rounds in it. Don't worry about inflicting "pain". Worry about your accuracy and shot placement in the face of tremendous stress. Twenty five yards from an active shooter will feel like 25". You better be good at stress management.
But if both rounds are 155 grain and have a similar nose shape and same overall length surely that's pretty close to the same bullet as far as gun functionality is concerned.
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Old 12-22-2012, 22:29   #15
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*Disclaimer* *I have absolutely no experience or facts to back up the following, it is just my opinion.*

IMHO Put a cast iron frying pan against your chest and have a buddy hit it as hard as he can with a baseball bat and that will be similar to being hit with a high power pistol round with armor (probably a bit more but close enough for this example). This will stun any BG enough to get him to stop shooting and give you time to try for a head shot. Anyone on PCP ... well I doubt they will be using a firearm or using it accurately if they are. If you are up against a combat vet on psychiatric drugs .... well you are probably out matched & *******ed anyway.

Just my opinion.
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Old 12-25-2012, 15:57   #16
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*Disclaimer* *I have absolutely no experience or facts to back up the following, it is just my opinion.*

IMHO Put a cast iron frying pan against your chest and have a buddy hit it as hard as he can with a baseball bat and that will be similar to being hit with a high power pistol round with armor (probably a bit more but close enough for this example). This will stun any BG enough to get him to stop shooting and give you time to try for a head shot. Anyone on PCP ... well I doubt they will be using a firearm or using it accurately if they are. If you are up against a combat vet on psychiatric drugs .... well you are probably out matched & *******ed anyway.

Just my opinion.
Rich Davis begs to differ.
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Old 12-28-2012, 23:58   #17
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Rich Davis begs to differ.
Walking the Walk - YouTube

Interesting. Like I stated I have no direct data, just opinion.

But not knowing exactly what he had under there (what fell out), what the load in the cartridge was & noticing he shot himself in the abs being fully prepared for it (Google Harry Houdini, his claim to being able to be hit in the stomach by anyone & the events leading up to his death) and I still think it would stun most people.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:09   #18
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Let me throw this thought out there. The 10mm is a hard-hitter, no doubt. If you punch through a bad guy with a FP or ball ammo, that round has to stop somewhere. Hopefully not in an innocent bystander. I would never recommend using anything BUT hollowpoint ammo for defense in a 10mm. The risk is too great.
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Old 12-23-2012, 13:27   #19
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Let me throw this thought out there. The 10mm is a hard-hitter, no doubt. If you punch through a bad guy with a FP or ball ammo, that round has to stop somewhere. Hopefully not in an innocent bystander. I would never recommend using anything BUT hollowpoint ammo for defense in a 10mm. The risk is too great.
I see what you're saying and I used to think that way also but I don't now for two reasons.

The police only hit their targets about 25% of the time. So 75% of their bullets go flying who knows where, and that is from trained professionals. Remember the case in New York recently where a man shot his co-worker and then fled on the busy streets? The police returned fire and took him down, and they only hit NINE bystanders in the process (none fatal). Forget over penetration, flat out missing the target is what's going to happen with most of your bullets because if that is as good as the police can do, I think it's unrealistic to expect better results from civilians.

Secondly, most gunshot wounds are not fatal. There is a CDC study of 5 years of gunshot woulds from 1993-1998 and 69% survived. It sounds callous but I think it's important to consider.

I don't think either of these should be taken as license to spray and pray. But the TMJ's I'm carrying are meant to be a hedge against a vest or other obstruction (BG using cover) and if things are bad enough to justify a CHL firing his gun, then it means a BG is trying to do harm and a possible bystander hit may be the lesser of two evils.
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Old 12-24-2012, 22:42   #20
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But G29SFWTF, those 10mm rounds are hot enough that standard overpenetration is something to be concerned about. I honestly can't figure why a guy would want to INCREASE the chance his round will pass through by using FMJ bullets.

I work with and around lots of bad guys for a living. I'm an Active Shooter Response Instructor for my agency and I've spent years dealing with parolees and gang bangers. The LAST thing I'm worried about is them having soft body armor. If one-in-a-million chance they are wearing it? Punch em with your 10mm rounds and then work in a head shot. My professional opinion, as someone who's seen a LOT of shootings and is married to a judge, is to stay away from staggering rounds. That kind of horseplay will hang you in court and more importantly, could injure someone you don't want to hurt.
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