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Old 11-17-2012, 13:05   #1
jutland
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Union members, help me understand something.

Teamsters knew from their press release a few days before the Hostess strike deadline that Hostess was not bluffing, as the Teamsters had seen the company books. Bakers union didn't see it that way. Why didn't teamsters basically advise its workers, to whom it owes a duty, to go back to work and cross a picket line created by a less sophisticated and less informed union?

I mean, I have always presumed union members to be lazy and without a grasp of how to stand on individual merit. I did not know they apparently were stupid.
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Old 11-17-2012, 13:13   #2
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i would guess that the more the workers get paid the more the teamsters are paid soooooooooo......id guess they were just greedy
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:17   #3
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i would guess that the more the workers get paid the more the teamsters are paid soooooooooo......id guess they were just greedy
I just hope the old timer's retirements are safe. The unions really shafted that company and the workers too.
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:35   #4
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I just hope the old timer's retirements are safe.
They're not.

When a company goes bankrupt, there's no more money to fund pensions. The old-timer pensions end up either getting paid by the new company that emerges from bankruptcy (unlikely in this case) or by the PBGC (a federal agency).
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:47   #5
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i would guess that the more the workers get paid the more the teamsters are paid soooooooooo......id guess they were just greedy
Not greedy - pure lunacy. The union KNEW Hosress would go belly up yet they continued anyway. How do UNEMPLOYED WORKERS get paid more? Did the union expect to take their pensions and run? THAT would be the ONLY way they would get ANY money.
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Old 11-22-2012, 16:21   #6
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i would guess that the more the workers get paid the more the teamsters are paid soooooooooo......id guess they were just greedy
Unions, greedy? Outdated?

Union bosses living luxurious lives with high salaries off the backs of workers?

Democrats on the take from unions to pass/enact laws forcing people to join unions against their will?

Unions using forced union dues to support political campaigns and causes against the desires of its members?

No say it ain't so!
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Old 11-17-2012, 13:20   #7
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Originally Posted by jutland View Post
Teamsters knew from their press release a few days before the Hostess strike deadline that Hostess was not bluffing, as the Teamsters had seen the company books. Bakers union didn't see it that way. Why didn't teamsters basically advise its workers, to whom it owes a duty, to go back to work and cross a picket line created by a less sophisticated and less informed union?

I mean, I have always presumed union members to be lazy and without a grasp of how to stand on individual merit. I did not know they apparently were stupid.
What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?
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Old 11-17-2012, 13:21   #8
Tim151515
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What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?
apparently 100%
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Old 11-17-2012, 13:28   #9
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Unions are Worthless! God i hope Ohio becomes a right to work state soon!
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Old 11-17-2012, 13:35   #10
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Unions are Worthless! God i hope Ohio becomes a right to work state soon!
me too. but i dont see that happening since the unions are pushing us into the blue.
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Old 11-18-2012, 13:22   #11
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Unions are Worthless! God i hope Ohio becomes a right to work state soon!
Wrong on the first account but I totally agree with your second sentiment. Florida is a right to work state. We have a great relationship with our company.
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Old 11-17-2012, 13:28   #12
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My wife's family is going on fourth generation sheet metal union. I've never done it. I understand both sides.

Why did the union guys in N.J. cuss the guys from the other states that came to fix the power grid?

Some things I don't understand.

I think the union just makes money for the Big Shots. Which is what most of the union guys hate the most.

?
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:27   #13
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My wife's family is going on fourth generation sheet metal union. I've never done it. I understand both sides.

Why did the union guys in N.J. cuss the guys from the other states that came to fix the power grid?

Some things I don't understand.

I think the union just makes money for the Big Shots. Which is what most of the union guys hate the most.

?
You're partially right. The other portion of union dues goes sgraight into the pockets of any polititian with a D behi d their name. Unions are 100 percent b.s., and their members are brainwashed. Flame away, I dont care.
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:02   #14
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apparently 100%
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Old 11-17-2012, 13:29   #15
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What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?
Whats acceptable to you? a 5% pay cut or you lose your job?
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:15   #16
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What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?
Whatever it takes to keep the business running is the acceptable number. The bakers union stood their ground and now look at those morons. Instead of getting paid less, they opted to get paid nothing. Then again these people were stupid enough to join a union in the first place so I can see how basic math may have been too complicated for them. Lets use your numbers as a reference point.

Paycheck - 5% > 0
Paycheck - 7% > 0
Paycheck - 8% > 0
Paycheck - 10% > 0

Seems fairly simple to me. I guess the bakers union doesn't provide intelligence as part of the contract.

Last edited by Roger1079; 11-17-2012 at 14:16..
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:32   #17
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Unions are wonderful. If you want a job you MUST join union and pay dues or no job. (many jobs/if union) If you have a small business that does similar job to what union does. They will "invite" you to join union and have oppertunity to pay dues.etc. If you decline it will become less and less friendly.
Then they will tell you not to work so hard. I will never join a union.
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:28   #18
WarCry
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Whatever it takes to keep the business running is the acceptable number. The bakers union stood their ground and now look at those morons. Instead of getting paid less, they opted to get paid nothing. Then again these people were stupid enough to join a union in the first place so I can see how basic math may have been too complicated for them. Lets use your numbers as a reference point.

Paycheck - 5% > 0
Paycheck - 7% > 0
Paycheck - 8% > 0
Paycheck - 10% > 0

Seems fairly simple to me. I guess the bakers union doesn't provide intelligence as part of the contract.
Say they lost the 5% this year and kept going...

Next year is another 5%, and when there are complaints, they say "Well, you were fine with it last year..."

When is "well, I still have a job" worth more than getting reamed year after year?

What was given up by the union in the last 2, 3, 4 contract renewals? How much has been given up before now that made them draw this line in the sand.


My point is that I don't know these answers. Maybe this is the first time there's ever been a push to reduce salaries, but do you really believe that, from a company that's been in such financial trouble?
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:57   #19
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Say they lost the 5% this year and kept going...

Next year is another 5%, and when there are complaints, they say "Well, you were fine with it last year..."

When is "well, I still have a job" worth more than getting reamed year after year?

What was given up by the union in the last 2, 3, 4 contract renewals? How much has been given up before now that made them draw this line in the sand.


My point is that I don't know these answers. Maybe this is the first time there's ever been a push to reduce salaries, but do you really believe that, from a company that's been in such financial trouble?
I cannot answer those questions either, however the numbers still make sense. If the company is in the red and in the middle of a bankruptcy filing, cuts have to be made. I doubt the only cuts they made were with payroll. Other expenses bit the dust too I am sure. The bottom line is that the bakers union called the companies bluff and lost. Now over 18000 people are unemployed because the union representing 5000 refused to compromise. And the irony of it all is that the unions are supposedly there to prevent the exact practices that they perform on a regular basis.
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:48   #20
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What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?
Compared to no job? 10% seems ok.
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Old 11-17-2012, 19:07   #21
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What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?
In 2009 the leadership where I work determined they'd screwed the pooch on the budget and gave us all a 7-day furlough period. IIRC, it equated to a 3% pay cut for that fiscal year. The plus side of it was that no one was going to be laid off.

We had the option of scheduling our days off. I won a bid for a replacement window job so I took all my days consecutively. In 3 days I made up all the money I'd lost and enough to pay 3 helpers. You have to be prepared for such things, union or not.
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:17   #22
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What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?
depends on how much i was making and how much i wanted to keep a job. But any of the cuts you mentioned id take to keep a decent job and benifits.....cause now they got ZERO(or what ever they get from Obama in unemplohment and Obamacare)
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Old 11-17-2012, 13:37   #23
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Apparently the situation is a bit more complex. I heard a radio report that about 10 years ago the company was taken over by hedge fund managers and bean counters and ever since then they have been slowly screwing the workers year after year in order to maximize the bottom line. Do companies have a right to make a profit? Of course. But when it comes to the point that you are dehumanizing your workers and treating them like factory equipment, the potential evils of capitalism pokes up its ugly head.

Do unions likewise have potential evils? Absolutely. Once they start getting in bed with politics and ignoring their responsibility to negotiate a fair wage they have overstepped their bounds.

I think both sides have a share in the blame.
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:05   #24
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Apparently the situation is a bit more complex. I heard a radio report that about 10 years ago the company was taken over by hedge fund managers and bean counters and ever since then they have been slowly screwing the workers year after year in order to maximize the bottom line. Do companies have a right to make a profit? Of course. But when it comes to the point that you are dehumanizing your workers and treating them like factory equipment, the potential evils of capitalism pokes up its ugly head.

Do unions likewise have potential evils? Absolutely. Once they start getting in bed with politics and ignoring their responsibility to negotiate a fair wage they have overstepped their bounds.

I think both sides have a share in the blame.
The company was in bankruptcy. If it could pay its debts. In other words the income could not pay its expenses. Not very complicated.
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:09   #25
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Apparently the situation is a bit more complex. I heard a radio report that about 10 years ago the company was taken over by hedge fund managers and bean counters and ever since then they have been slowly screwing the workers year after year in order to maximize the bottom line. Do companies have a right to make a profit? Of course. But when it comes to the point that you are dehumanizing your workers and treating them like factory equipment, the potential evils of capitalism pokes up its ugly head.
An employee always has the option to quit. Nobody is forcing them to deal with unfair business practices. They are employees not prisoners or slaves.
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