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Old 11-02-2012, 19:06   #1
Trigger Finger
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What does the DHS need with all this Ammo?

This really makes me wonder why the government is arming and supplying tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition to the Social Security Administration and the National Weather Service.

I can't figure it out other then perhaps the government is getting ready for an anticipated uprising.

I had no idea that this much ammunition was being bought and who was getting it.

Maybe I need to buy a thousand more rounds of ammo to go with my current stash.

http://www.guns.com/dhs-stockpile-ammunition-11361.html

What do you guys think? Be alert because something is in the works or no big deal!!!
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Old 11-02-2012, 19:46   #2
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I can't open the link right now, but if it's from the previous stories I've read on it, it was a contract for UP TO a particular amount. DHS owns and operates the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, which trains officers and agents from the vast majority of federal law enforcement agencies (including SSA and NWS and many other obscure agencies' Offices of Inspector General Special Agents). Think about how much firearms training is done in LAPD's academy. Then think about how many academies are going on AT ONE TIME on FLETC; it's in the dozens. Think about how many rounds each class uses, and multiply that out. That's just the basic classes, not even counting the advanced training that's going on. Plus all the ammo needed for all of the agencies under DHS to requalify and train under their policies. THAT is why they put out those bids.
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 11-02-2012, 20:28   #3
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Originally Posted by CJStudent View Post
I can't open the link right now, but if it's from the previous stories I've read on it, it was a contract for UP TO a particular amount. DHS owns and operates the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, which trains officers and agents from the vast majority of federal law enforcement agencies (including SSA and NWS and many other obscure agencies' Offices of Inspector General Special Agents). Think about how much firearms training is done in LAPD's academy. Then think about how many academies are going on AT ONE TIME on FLETC; it's in the dozens. Think about how many rounds each class uses, and multiply that out. That's just the basic classes, not even counting the advanced training that's going on. Plus all the ammo needed for all of the agencies under DHS to requalify and train under their policies. THAT is why they put out those bids.

I understand all of that but all of this ammo is JHP. You don't need JHP for training or qualifications.

And the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration's National Weather Service is getting 46,000 rounds of 40 S&W Jacketed Hollow Points. For what? I didn't know their were pistol packing weatherman!!!

The site is " http://guns.com/ ". Today's story!
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Old 11-02-2012, 20:30   #4
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Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
I understand all of that but all of this ammo is JHP. You don't need JHP for training or qualifications.

And the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration's National Weather Service is getting 46,000 rounds of 40 S&W Jacketed Hollow Points. For what? I didn't know their were pistol packing weatherman!!!

The site is " http://guns.com/ ". Today's story!
I don't know about all agencies, but all we shoot with my agency is JHPs. Training, quals, and carrying on duty is all JHPs.

NOAA has a law enforcement arm:

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/

I'm also willing to bet that NWS has an OIG. Plus, I'm also willing to bet the purchase order was for UP TO 46,000 rounds. They bid like that to guarantee they can get all the ammo they can conceivably need at the same price. It's pretty standard with government bids.
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.

Last edited by CJStudent; 11-02-2012 at 20:33..
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Old 11-02-2012, 20:39   #5
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What does the DHS need with all this Ammo?
We could tell you, but then we would have to kill you.

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Old 11-02-2012, 20:46   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
I understand all of that but all of this ammo is JHP. You don't need JHP for training or qualifications.

And the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration's National Weather Service is getting 46,000 rounds of 40 S&W Jacketed Hollow Points. For what? I didn't know their were pistol packing weatherman!!!

The site is " http://guns.com/ ". Today's story!
The last time my agency ordered ammunition WIN JHP was cheaper than WIN FMJ. We use nothing but WIN JHP for everything now.
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Old 11-03-2012, 18:05   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
I understand all of that but all of this ammo is JHP. You don't need JHP for training or qualifications.

And the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration's National Weather Service is getting 46,000 rounds of 40 S&W Jacketed Hollow Points. For what? I didn't know their were pistol packing weatherman!!!

The site is " http://guns.com/ ". Today's story!
My Dept trains with what we carry. 357sig hst.
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:10   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
I understand all of that but all of this ammo is JHP. You don't need JHP for training or qualifications.

And the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration's National Weather Service is getting 46,000 rounds of 40 S&W Jacketed Hollow Points. For what? I didn't know their were pistol packing weatherman!!!

The site is " http://guns.com/ ". Today's story!
I was shocked when I left the state, where we qualified and practiced with cheapo ammo, and went to the feds, where ammo pretty much seems to grow on trees.

Most years, I probably shot two or three thousand rounds at the range every year. When I retired, I think we had something like 6000 sworn. That's a lot of bullets.

I remember qualifiying by shooting hundreds of rounds of 62 grain .223 rounds that cost .70 each.

Federal purchasing is weird, too, sometimes. One agency will often purchase items on their contract for another agency, and it will look on paper like that agency bought it for themselves.
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Old 11-03-2012, 18:03   #9
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Originally Posted by CJStudent View Post
I can't open the link right now, but if it's from the previous stories I've read on it, it was a contract for UP TO a particular amount. DHS owns and operates the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, which trains officers and agents from the vast majority of federal law enforcement agencies (including SSA and NWS and many other obscure agencies' Offices of Inspector General Special Agents). Think about how much firearms training is done in LAPD's academy. Then think about how many academies are going on AT ONE TIME on FLETC; it's in the dozens. Think about how many rounds each class uses, and multiply that out. That's just the basic classes, not even counting the advanced training that's going on. Plus all the ammo needed for all of the agencies under DHS to requalify and train under their policies. THAT is why they put out those bids.
I don't think its unreasonable at all. It takes A TON of ammo in all that training and roughly 50 rounds on each individuals belt, minimum.
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Old 11-02-2012, 19:56   #10
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OMG! Wonder if they're going to help the Social Security Administration euthanize old people in order to save the social security system?!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1854121.html

This goofy conspiracy theory gets circulated every time a Federal agency that people don't usually associate with front line law enforcement makes their ammo purchases.

Probably time to switch out the tin foil lining your hat. You know it expires, right? Actually, that's not right. What happens is that Major League Baseball changes the frequency that they operate on whenever they receive a new directive from the Freemasons, so you need to get a different brand of tinfoil to compensate.
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Old 11-02-2012, 20:23   #11
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Probably a whole bunch of non-DHS agencies also piggyback on the DHS contract. And most agencies have both an investigative and a uniform component who are armed.
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Old 11-02-2012, 20:25   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Probably a whole bunch of non-DHS agencies also piggyback on the DHS contract. And most agencies have both an investigative and a uniform component who are armed.
Not to mention the vast amount of various OIGs around; pretty much every major department and most (if not all) smaller independant agencies have them.
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 11-02-2012, 20:49   #13
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Wow. Somebody must have been a captain..or a chief.

I qualify quarterly. (For those of you alarmed by the article, that means FOUR times each year.)

Between qualification and training I shoot about 200 - 250 rounds on a training day.
That means I use about 1,000 rounds of .40 a year. Contrary to the linked article, we only shoot our carry ammo. Wasteful, yeah I think so, but that's how we do it.

CJStudent already mentioned FLETC. He didn't mention that there are several FLETC locations:
FLETC Glynco
FLETC Artesia
FLETC Charleston
FLETC Cheltenham
FLETC International (Hungary, Thailand, Botswana, and El Salvador)

On top of that here are the majority of gun-toters that fall under the umbrella of DHS. This doesn't include DHS-OIG and I didn't include the U.S. Coast Guard. I know they carry the Sig P229 in .40 also.

8,500 Special Agents HSI
7,000 Deportation Officers & Immigration Enforcement Agents
21,370 Border Patrol agents
21,186 CBP Officers
4,400 +/- Secret Service Special Agents + Uniformed Divison
???? Federal Air Marshals
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Old 11-02-2012, 20:54   #14
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Originally Posted by Newcop761 View Post
Wow. Somebody must have been a captain..or a chief.

I qualify quarterly. (For those of you alarmed by the article, that means FOUR times each year.)

Between qualification and training I shoot about 200 - 250 rounds on a training day.
That means I use about 1,000 rounds of .40 a year. Contrary to the linked article, we only shoot our carry ammo. Wasteful, yeah I think so, but that's how we do it.

CJStudent already mentioned FLETC. He didn't mention that there are several FLETC locations:
FLETC Glynco
FLETC Artesia
FLETC Charleston
FLETC Cheltenham
FLETC International (Hungary, Thailand, Botswana, and El Salvador)

On top of that here are the majority of gun-toters that fall under the umbrella of DHS. This doesn't include DHS-OIG and I didn't include the U.S. Coast Guard. I know they carry the Sig P229 in .40 also.

8,500 Special Agents HSI
7,000 Deportation Officers & Immigration Enforcement Agents
21,370 Border Patrol agents
21,186 CBP Officers
4,400 +/- Secret Service Special Agents + Uniformed Divison
???? Federal Air Marshals
I'd forgotten about all the other FLETC locations; we only send people to Glynco, so that's all I tend to think about.
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 11-02-2012, 21:42   #15
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I am at a loss as to what the problem is.

At my agency, each officer shoots 50 rounds per month at the range and qualifies once per quarter. On top of that, each officer probably shoot another 100 round per year practicing new drills. That comes out to 700 rounds per officer, per year. We shoot the same ammo at the range as we shoot in the field for reasons of civil liability. This way if someone sues us over an officer involved shooting, their lawyer can't claim we were unfamiliar with the characteristics of our duty ammo because we only shoot ball at the range.

I am going to assume the Fed follow a similar protocol. The article says the Feds bought 40,220,000 rounds. By my agency's standards that's enough annual practice ammo for 54,457 officers. So how many cops do the Feds have? Let's count -

8,500 Special Agents HSI
7,000 Deportation Officers & Immigration Enforcement Agents
21,370 Border Patrol agents
21,186 CBP Officers
4,400 +/- Secret Service Special Agents + Uniformed Division
295 Social Security Special Agents

Total 62,751

I'm sure there are a lot more, but lets just go with these.

62,751 Feds X 700 rounds per year = 43,925,700 rounds needed

OOPS. It looks like the Feds didn't order enough ammo for everyone to practice monthly at the range over the next fiscal year. They are either going to have to order 3,705,700 more rounds, or someone is going to have to skip going to the range, or they are going to have to stop shooting bad guys in the field.

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Old 11-03-2012, 19:06   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L-1 View Post
I am at a loss as to what the problem is.

At my agency, each officer shoots 50 rounds per month at the range and qualifies once per quarter. On top of that, each officer probably shoot another 100 round per year practicing new drills. That comes out to 700 rounds per officer, per year. We shoot the same ammo at the range as we shoot in the field for reasons of civil liability. This way if someone sues us over an officer involved shooting, their lawyer can't claim we were unfamiliar with the characteristics of our duty ammo because we only shoot ball at the range.

I am going to assume the Fed follow a similar protocol. The article says the Feds bought 40,220,000 rounds. By my agency's standards that's enough annual practice ammo for 54,457 officers. So how many cops do the Feds have? Let's count -

8,500 Special Agents HSI
7,000 Deportation Officers & Immigration Enforcement Agents
21,370 Border Patrol agents
21,186 CBP Officers
4,400 +/- Secret Service Special Agents + Uniformed Division
295 Social Security Special Agents

Total 62,751

I'm sure there are a lot more, but lets just go with these.

62,751 Feds X 700 rounds per year = 43,925,700 rounds needed

OOPS. It looks like the Feds didn't order enough ammo for everyone to practice monthly at the range over the next fiscal year. They are either going to have to order 3,705,700 more rounds, or someone is going to have to skip going to the range, or they are going to have to stop shooting bad guys in the field.
DOJ as a whole, mint police, washington dc police, Irs police, just to name a few feds that also need to practice with ammo.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:28   #17
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Let's see, I have been called Ignorant, having a lack of Common Sense, can't do Simple Math and having no Knowledge of Training. At the same time being told that I should know all of this having 30 years as a police officer, detective and detective supervisor.

Maybe you all are correct. For the last 8 years on the job I worked a specialized Surveillance Unit where we would sometimes remain in the field for days at a time. Before that I worked homicide and before that gang suppression and investigation. I was never involved in procuring ammunition or any other tools of the trade other that testing vests and individual weapons and vehicles for the units I was in.

I guess allot of you college boys who sometimes would work the field in between ordering thousands of rounds of ammunition for all weapons your department would use, and attempt to train others, then in the meantime bad mouth old dinosaurs like me and wonder why working cops don't understand the expenditures of his department.

I came on the job to arrest evil doers and did not care about who orders what in what quantity!

Someone's got to do it but bad mouthing those who don't are beneath most of you who really are cops!
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Old 11-02-2012, 21:03   #18
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There is acase law on point that states officers need to train with the ammo they use on duty. Of course my department does that every five years.

46,000 rounds in nothing.

Figure 2 quals 50 rounds each.

Training on each qual day an easy 200 rounds could be fired.

500 rounds per officer per year.

46,000 rounds=92 officers for one year.
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Old 11-02-2012, 21:17   #19
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Second or third thread on this topic, maybe more.
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Old 11-02-2012, 22:35   #20
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Second or third thread on this topic, maybe more.

This might be the third or tenth article on this topic but I am basing it on an article that came out today, 11-2-2012.

It seems everyone thinks this is a normal amount of ammunition to be purchased and I suppose it is, now that it was explained to me. I did not know that DHS provided ammo for all these other branches and sections.

On LAPD we qualified every other month with FMJ practice ammo and JHP duty rounds twice a year! I am surprised that any agency or department with 500 officers or more would qualify every time with JHP ammo!!

And I am surprised that the Weather Service and Social Security has armed officers.

I guess I stand corrected!!
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Old 11-02-2012, 22:16   #21
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I forgot where I read it but someone did the math for every agency and every training and qual and all that and the math works out to about maybe a few year's worth of ammo for everything. Relatively speaking, it's not that big of a deal compared to how much ammo some of us hoard.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:55   #22
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I forgot where I read it but someone did the math for every agency and every training and qual and all that and the math works out to about maybe a few year's worth of ammo for everything. Relatively speaking, it's not that big of a deal compared to how much ammo some of us hoard.

^^^ I've posted the math covering this in umpteen different threads. I won't go through the entire equation again, but here's some numbers to get you started:

DHS is REQUIRED to qualify quarterly, and the "standard" ammo issue per qual is 250 rounds. That's 1000 rounds of ammo per officer, per year. So multiply officers X 1000 rounds, and you get how many rounds per year each agency needs.

Or conversely, take the number of rounds purchased by the agency, divide it by 1000, then divide THAT figure by the number of officers, and you get how many years it will take to shoot up that ammo at current rates of consumption. Usually, you take the figure posted by the tinfoil hatter, then divide it by (officers*1000) and the answer is in the single digits, if it isn't a decimal figure.

People have no idea of the order of magnitude you're dealing with when it comes to Federal Government ammo consumption. Then again, most people also can't be bothered to do some basic math to check and see if the "sky is falling" headline they're parroting is going to make them look like an idiot or not.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:58   #23
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Oh, and I nearly forgot the tinfoil hat claim of "if all this ammo is for practice, why are they buying HOLLOWPOINTS?"

The answer was already covered by a previous post in this thread:

Quote:
We shoot the same ammo at the range as we shoot in the field for reasons of civil liability. This way if someone sues us over an officer involved shooting, their lawyer can't claim we were unfamiliar with the characteristics of our duty ammo because we only shoot ball at the range.
That, and also because if you shoot ball at the range, you can be guaranteed that some booger eater is going to sneak some home and it will find its way into his duty carry ammo. At DHS, we only deal with duty-carry ammo. This way we only have to deal with one type, and you don't have to worry about having the wrong kind on hand. We only have one type of ammo: the right kind (and damn the expense).

Tens of thousands of rounds for ANY agency in the Fed Gov is NOTHING. Statistically negligible.

Millions of rounds for an agency is maybe a 5 year supply, at best.

Billions of rounds - either an agency is expanding, or they're buying ammo a decade ahead, or it's a contract for multiple agencies, like maybe the entire DHS or DOJ putting out one collective contract for all the agencies under their umbrella.

A trillion plus rounds - Might be time to raise an eyebrow, unless it's a DOD wartime contract. For a civilian agency though, that *MIGHT* be an order of magnitude large enough where you might be justified in worrying.

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Old 11-03-2012, 07:29   #24
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Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
This really makes me wonder why the government is arming and supplying tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition to the Social Security Administration and the National Weather Service.

I can't figure it out other then perhaps the government is getting ready for an anticipated uprising.

I had no idea that this much ammunition was being bought and who was getting it.

Maybe I need to buy a thousand more rounds of ammo to go with my current stash.

http://www.guns.com/dhs-stockpile-ammunition-11361.html

What do you guys think? Be alert because something is in the works or no big deal!!!
I am really suprised this silliness ended up here of all places.

Every part of government has an investigative arm, even the postal service. Now, consider the fact that everyone is required to qualify four times a year, and there is a lot of "range play" as well that consume rounds: shoot and move, down and disabled, on and on. Then consider that they are required to issue duty ammo, and practice ammo, and some folks are great shots and others are not. So, you find some people requalifying on range day, that is a buttload of ammo.

There is no grand conspiiracy going on. A lot more ammo goes to the military and no one is running around declaring the sky is falling.
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:38   #25
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We use FMJ ammo to qualify and practice with. We have 4 range days per year for a total of around 250 rounds. Once every 2 years, we shoot our duty ammo (used to be every qual, and then every year).

I didn't realize that DHS bought all the ammo for everyone at FLETC, I would have figured each agency did that. I also didn't realize that you guys only shoot JHP for everything even training.
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