Observations from Tnoutdoors9 Test

Yankee2718 · 10-09-2012, 13:41

If you watch his videos you can start to pick up on certain trends. I notice bullets that achieve >1000 fps seem to cause more internal damage than bullets that achieve <1000 fps. The slower bullets seem to just punch a straight path and not "churn" up the gel.

Some of the Underwood Ammo 10mm offerings in the 1500-1600 fps range produce a damage path that looks similar (not the same) to a .223 damage path.

I think that velocity and bullet construction is playing a bigger role in the wounding abilities of these bullets than the actual size of the bullet.

Categories.

115 grain+ weighted bullets >1250 fps

115 grain+ weighted bullets >1400 fps

124 grain+ weighted bullets >1200 fps

124 grain+ weighted bullets >1250 fps

165 grain+ weighted bullets >1000 fps

200 grain+ weighted bullets > 850 fps

Each individual category has some tradeoffs.
115 grain+ weighted bullets >1400fps produce a large damage path but also produce shallow penetration.
124 grain+ weighted bullets >1200 fps offer a balanced mix of large damage path and adequate penetration.
165 grain+ weighted bullets >1000 fps create adequate penetration, but not always a large damage path.

200 grain+ weighted bullets >850 fps penetrate deeply, but do not produce a large damage path.

In regards to 155 and 165 grain bullets traveling >1150 fps, I don't have enough data to make any meaningful observations.

With the data produced by tnoutdoors9, I can make a few hypotheses:

The best all-around performers based on the data available, appear to be 124 grain+ weighted bullets >1200 fps and 165 grain+ weighted bullets >1000 fps.

This could change with additional testing of 155 grain bullets traveling at 1300/1400 fps, 165 grain bullets traveling at 1200/1300 fps, and 180 grain bullets traveling 1100-1300 fps.

Testing of the Underwood .45 ACP 185 grain GDHP at 1200 fps and 230 grain GDHP at 1000 fps would be interesting and are necessary missing data points.

The only conclusion I can draw from the current data points is that 1000 +/- 25 fps seems to be a threshold for creating a damage path. Bullets moving slower than 975 fps appear to mostly push straight through.

These are just my observations. These could also be meaningless as simulating actual live tissue is much different than a ballistic medium.

cowboy1964 · 10-09-2012, 13:57

I like mid-weight, fast, bullets personally, at least in 9mm. I do think energy is a factor.

That said, pistol bullets at these velocities simply do not create damage from the temporary cavity. Only tissue that is physically touched by the bullet is permanently damaged. .357 Sig consistently produces the most impressive permanent cavities, especially in overall length of the large permanent cavity (typically around 7 inches).

This is a good read:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Yankee2718 · 10-09-2012, 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

I like mid-weight, fast, bullets personally, at least in 9mm. I do think energy is a factor.

That said, pistol bullets at these velocities simply do not create damage from the temporary cavity. Only tissue that is physically touched by the bullet is permanently damaged. .357 Sig consistently produces the most impressive permanent cavities, especially in overall length of the large permanent cavity (typically around 7 inches).

This is a good read:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

The damage to the gel is what I am basing my observations on. I'm not even jumping into the ballistic pressure wave game.

ABNAK · 10-09-2012, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yankee2718

The damage to the gel is what I am basing my observations on. I'm not even jumping into the ballistic pressure wave game.

The gel damage, or "churning" as you put it, is an indicator of temporary stretch cavity. Now this is a long-running debate on here as to whether it has any impact on incapacitation by being strong enough to actually tear organs not specifically touched by the bullet itself. I dunno personally......I'm on the fence. Always have liked a "dynamic" bullet, but some of these newer bullet designs like HST don't need a screaming velocity to perform as far as expansion and penetration are concerned.

The ballistic pressure wave is more concerning "shock" to the CNS or cardiovascular system from a wave of pressure.

Frankly I'd put more likelihood of actually occuring on the temporary stretch cavity causing additional damage than I would the ballistic pressure wave slapping someone down.

uz2bUSMC · 10-09-2012, 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABNAK

Frankly I'd put more likelihood of actually occuring on the temporary stretch cavity causing additional damage than I would the ballistic pressure wave slapping someone down.

These two things you mention go hand in hand.

ABNAK · 10-09-2012, 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC

These two things you mention go hand in hand.

I think the first one is at least *possible* with handgun rounds, the BPW probably not unless we start talking about the next level, i.e. rifles.

uz2bUSMC · 10-09-2012, 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

I like mid-weight, fast, bullets personally, at least in 9mm. I do think energy is a factor.

That said, pistol bullets at these velocities simply do not create damage from the temporary cavity. Only tissue that is physically touched by the bullet is permanently damaged. .357 Sig consistently produces the most impressive permanent cavities, especially in overall length of the large permanent cavity (typically around 7 inches).

This is a good read:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

You post those links so much you must be sold on the koolaid, very, very old koolaid at that.

Yankee2718 · 10-09-2012, 16:02

Where the gel has been "churned" that indicates damage. In a scientific format, that equals more damage.

PrecisionRifleman · 10-09-2012, 17:19

I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

Hornady TAP FPD .40 S&W 155 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube

SCmasterblaster · 10-10-2012, 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman

I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

Hornady TAP FPD .40 S&W 155 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube

Nice, informative video.

4949shooter · 10-11-2012, 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman

I'm a fan of accuracy, speed, and penetration. This is my reason for going with a 155gr XTP handloaded in a 40S&W. The 155XTP has good velocity (1150-1200fps depending on load), it expands (not as much as some), and you get stellar penetration. I'm also getting more consistent, and excellent accuracy from my handloaded 155XTP's @ 1150fps (haven't tried higher velocity YET) than any other store bought whiz bang round that you can get at your LGS. TnOutDoors has tested the XTP bullet in GEL using the Hornady TAP load, and it performed impressively based on the criteria I look for in a handgun cartridge.

Hornady TAP FPD .40 S&W 155 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube

I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).

dpadams6 · 10-12-2012, 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4949shooter

I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).

Yes. I agree. Seems like this load would hold up very well at higher speeds and being its a controlled/slow expansion, would probably get the best of both worlds.

4949shooter · 10-12-2012, 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpadams6

Yes. I agree. Seems like this load would hold up very well at higher speeds and being its a controlled/slow expansion, would probably get the best of both worlds.

That's what I am thinking.

Great minds think alike!

SCmasterblaster · 10-12-2012, 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4949shooter

I would like to see the 10mm version of this bad boy tested. 155 grains at 1270 (as chronographed by doc).

That must be one hard-hitting round!

4949shooter · 10-12-2012, 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

That must be one hard-hitting round!

Hopefully TN will get around to it.

dpadams6 · 10-09-2012, 17:42

This coincides what ive been saying for years and have seen quite a bit first hand. The 357sig is the best handgun caliber on the planet, for all around self defense.

Zombie Steve · 10-09-2012, 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpadams6

This coincides what ive been saying for years and have seen quite a bit first hand. The 357sig is the best handgun caliber on the planet, for all around self defense.

Yep... it's done a pretty good job of duplicating one .357 magnum load on the light end...

cowboy1964 · 10-09-2012, 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

Yep... it's done a pretty good job of duplicating one .357 magnum load on the light end...

Well, that "light end" is where the legend of the .357 Magnum lives.

Zombie Steve · 10-09-2012, 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

Well, that "light end" is where the legend of the .357 Magnum lives.

Or the only part of the legend you've payed attention to...

It's a very capable woods round as well with 158's or 180's. Has been since 1934.

PrecisionRifleman · 10-09-2012, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie Steve

Or the only part of the legend you've payed attention to...

It's a very capable woods round as well with 158's or 180's. Has been since 1934.

True story.

PrecisionRifleman · 10-09-2012, 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpadams6

This coincides what ive been saying for years and have seen quite a bit first hand. The 357sig is the best handgun caliber on the planet, for all around self defense.

10mm stomps the 357sig between bullet diameter, bullet weight, and velocity.

Plus I'll take a 40S&W 155gr moving @ 1200fps in a 4" barrel over a 9mm 125gr bullet moving @ 1350 in a 4" barrel. But that's just my preference. To each their own.

dpadams6 · 10-10-2012, 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman

10mm stomps the 357sig between bullet diameter, bullet weight, and velocity.

Plus I'll take a 40S&W 155gr moving @ 1200fps in a 4" barrel over a 9mm 125gr bullet moving @ 1350 in a 4" barrel. But that's just my preference. To each their own.

Anyone who has used a handgun in self defense would prob. Believe that the 10mm might be a bit much in that situation for accuracy/control/follow-up shots. Great round otherwise. Someone once said, maybe this forum, that the 125 grain bullet just seems to be the ideal weight for defense against humans (357mag). Not to little and not too much. And 357 sig as well. They just work. Ive never heard of anyone say anything negative with the 357 sig. Every police dept. That uses it seem to like it very well. The secret service stated that it was the most effective round they ever tested. The 40 s&w 155 at 1200fps seems like that would be a fantastic round as well.

Yankee2718 · 10-10-2012, 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpadams6

Anyone who has used a handgun in self defense would prob. Believe that the 10mm might be a bit much in that situation for accuracy/control/follow-up shots. Great round otherwise. Someone once said, maybe this forum, that the 125 grain bullet just seems to be the ideal weight for defense against humans (357mag). Not to little and not too much. And 357 sig as well. They just work. Ive never heard of anyone say anything negative with the 357 sig. Every police dept. That uses it seem to like it very well. The secret service stated that it was the most effective round they ever tested. The 40 s&w 155 at 1200fps seems like that would be a fantastic round as well.

The .357 Sig is very impressive. Underwood ammo has proven that the lowly 9mm can be loaded to near .357 Sig velocity. The Underwood 124 +P+ makes 1300 fps from a Glock 19. The Speer factory 125 grain Gold Dot made I think only 30 or so fps more from a Glock 32. It will be nice to see if he tests some of the Underwood .357 Sig ammunition for more comparison.

In regards to the .357 Magnum, it is a stellar round, when fired out of an appropriate pistol. Tnoutdoors9's tests have showed that in a self defense size pistol (Ruger GP100) the 357 magnum is neck in neck with the 357 Sig. It is still a very viable weapon, but the damage caused by the 357 Magnum from the GP100 is not much greater than the 357 Sig or fast 115 and 124 grain 9mm rounds.

Out of a 6 inch barrel the 357 magnum might leave both of those rounds in the dust, but not from a weapon the size of an average carry weapon.

cowboy1964 · 10-09-2012, 18:04

The gel isn't "churned". The path you see carved out is where the bullet has cut through. There is also going to be variability in how he slices the halves. You'll notice he uses that little pick thing to pry open the damage channel so it can be seen better.

Why do you think the maximum cavity isn't produced until several inches in? Because the bullet hasn't fully expanded yet! The damage is only being caused by what the bullet is physically touching. If temporary cavity/energy was causing damage you would see more damage at the entry point because that is where max energy is occurring but all you see is a wound track the diameter of the original caliber.

BTW, his .40 180gr HST test was one of the best for wound channel, in any weight or caliber.

.40 Federal HST 180 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube

What more proof? Look at one of his few videos where he shows front facing cross-sections of gel. The only damage is where the shaft of the bullet and the petals have cut through. For example, watch this starting at 3:30:

.45 ACP Federal HST 230 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube

BUT... the .357 Sig videos do show some evidence of the temporary cavity actually permanently deforming gel outside of the permanent cavity. So anyone dissing the .357 Sig hasn't been paying attention.

uz2bUSMC · 10-09-2012, 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

The gel isn't "churned". The path you see carved out is where the bullet has cut through. There is also going to be variability in how he slices the halves. You'll notice he uses that little pick thing to pry open the damage channel so it can be seen better.

Why do you think the maximum cavity isn't produced until several inches in? Because the bullet hasn't fully expanded yet! The damage is only being caused by what the bullet is physically touching. If temporary cavity/energy was causing damage you would see more damage at the entry point because that is where max energy is occurring but all you see is a wound track the diameter of the original caliber.

BTW, his .40 180gr HST test was one of the best for wound channel, in any weight or caliber.

.40 Federal HST 180 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube

What more proof? Look at one of his few videos where he shows front facing cross-sections of gel. The only damage is where the shaft of the bullet and the petals have cut through. For example, watch this starting at 3:30:

.45 ACP Federal HST 230 gr Ammo Gel Test - YouTube

BUT... the .357 Sig videos do show some evidence of the temporary cavity actually permanently deforming gel outside of the permanent cavity. So anyone dissing the .357 Sig hasn't been paying attention.

You literally contradicted yourself all in one post.

Anyway, you can see temp cavity effects with other rounds he has tested, the 10mm 180grn GD being a good example. The bullet clearly does not touch the media an 1" (2' dia.) away from the bullet track yet there is damage...