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Old 10-04-2012, 11:52   #1
SCmasterblaster
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Why do LEOs assume that OCers are criminals? I don't understand.

Why do LEOs assume that OCers are criminals? I don't understand.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:25   #2
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I split this off from another thread so it could receive proper exposure and to keep from derailing the other thread.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:30   #3
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Who says they do? From what I see, most OC stops are caused by citizens calling in "man with a gun". They have to check it out.

When you get pulled over for speeding, aren't they also "assuming" the possibility that you may pull out a gun and kill them?

Last edited by cowboy1964; 10-04-2012 at 12:31..
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:40   #4
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Is it possible that the attitude of the OCer could play a role? It seems to me that some OCers are passionate about their right to carry OC, and confrontational in a verbal, but non-violent way, when a LEO simply stops them and asks what they are doing.

Might a person openly displaying a gun on their hip, and expressing the attitude that many (but not all) OCers seem to have... color that LEO's opinion of things?

Think of it from the position of the officer who has to address an unknown person who has an openly displayed/holstered handgun.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:42   #5
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Is it possible that the attitude of the OCer could play a role?
No No, that just can't be. Evey open carrier is always pleasant, cooperative, helpful and courteous to the officer.

They are never offensive, never running on the edge of obstruction, never looking for a altercation with the police, and are never looking for attention.



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Old 10-04-2012, 16:03   #6
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Who says they do? From what I see, most OC stops are caused by citizens calling in "man with a gun". They have to check it out.

When you get pulled over for speeding, aren't they also "assuming" the possibility that you may pull out a gun and kill them?

Why are there no man with a book calls?
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Old 10-04-2012, 16:20   #7
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Why are there no man with a book calls?


You can bet your ass that when a serial "guy with a book" starts beating the heck out of strangers, the cops will be called. especially when a concerned person sees a guy with a book..




I do believe that a person OCing, is looking for attention and is perturbed when he gets it.
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Old 10-04-2012, 23:03   #8
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Why are there no man with a book calls?
Unavailability of assault books?
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:03   #9
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Why are there no man with a book calls?
Because by design a book is not intended to be a deadly weapon. a firearm is. And so far we don't have people taking their books into schools, playgrounds, churches, malls, and theaters and killing folks with their book.

If a gun is to be viewed no different than a book why not carry a book for self defense and deterrent instead of a gun?
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:59   #10
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Because by design a book is not intended to be a deadly weapon. a firearm is. And so far we don't have people taking their books into schools, playgrounds, churches, malls, and theaters and killing folks with their book.

If a gun is to be viewed no different than a book why not carry a book for self defense and deterrent instead of a gun?
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Old 10-05-2012, 22:24   #11
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Why are there no man with a book calls?
The general disintegration of society. Damn kindles and smartphones. Nobody actually carries a book around anymore.

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Old 10-05-2012, 23:09   #12
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This question can have a thousand different answers depending on what state, city, county, or even street you live in! It will have a lot to do with the societal norm in that respective area.

For instance, some people here feel that it's a violation of rights for an officer to ask ID when first making contact with an OCer. This could be true if the involved state requires more than just a firearm to stop & detain. Keep in mind I said "detain." Walking up and making consensual contact is not illegal anywhere. Even asking for ID can be construed as consensual. It's up to the courts in the state to interpret when the consensual contact becomes a "detainment." In TN, it is unlawful to carry a handgun (open or concealed) without a valid handgun carry permit. Technically under statute I can walk right up to you and your open-carried weapon and demand to see your permit to carry it. The permit is a defense to unlawful carry. If you fail to show it, then I can arrest for unlawful carry and you can offer your permit as a defense to the charge in court. Under statute it also requires the permit holder to show ID when requested by LE, so we have some wiggle room in my state. BTW, I have yet to approach and demand to see a permit based on the sole observation of open-carry. If I've asked about a weapon, it's been during a traffic stop or other investigatory encounter.

Another example would be something as simple as the common method of carry in your neck of the woods. Although permit holders have the option to carry open or concealed in TN, most in my area choose to carry concealed. I'm in a large urban environment. I would say in more rural areas of TN open carry may be more common. I don't know as I don't work those areas. With that said, it doesn't mean I'm going to approach and investigate a person carrying openly, but depending on the time, area, movements, body language, and a multitude of other things, I will make a judgment call whether to keep driving along or stop and make contact. Again, if I keep the contact consensual, things the holder says or does can rise to a situation where I may ask for the permit or it moves into something else.

I think it's ill-informed to make a blanket statement about LEOs and their views of gun holders. I'm sure there are some areas where interactions between gun toters and LEOs have not been that pleasant. I'm sure there are other areas where gun toters have yet to have one negative encounter with law enforcement. The multitude of LE know that we can't be everywhere at all times. As far as most of the officers I've spoke with, we encourage responsible carry. I teach part-time at the state academy and I've been in the business for 10+ years. I've spoken with quite a few LEOs during my career. None of them I have spoke with have ever said that people shouldn't carry guns around. I think most have the same opinion as me. We expect responsible gun carry.

Not to get too long-winded, but also keep in mind that gunfire is usually either the #1 or #2 (sometimes behind traffic crashes) cause of death to police on-duty. Look at the amount of officers just this year who were ambushed with gunfire. We simply cannot make the assumption that every person carrying a firearm is Mary Poppins. I'm going home to see my wife and kids at the end of the day. If that means I have to hurt someone's feelings to do it, then so be it. I have done nothing but been respectful to all of the permit carriers I've stopped in my time. I have arrested several as well, but treated them nicely during the encounter unless it was time not to be nice. Those arrests didn't involve use of their weapon, but simply having it while being DUI or involved in other non-threatening criminal activity.

Bottom line, there are way too many variables at play to give one simple statement about LEOs and their opinion on gun carriers. In my opinion, based on my work in my area, we encourage carry as long as it's done responsibly. I just ask that holders try to put themselves in our shoes every once and awhile. I encourage everyone to go on a ride-a-long if they ever get the chance. I think it will open your eyes a little bit about why LE in general are precautionary when dealing with weapons. There's always a LEO that will be a butt-head during a weapon-related encounter, but it's immature to suggest that all LE is the same way. That's like any other profession. If I get a plumber or carpenter who screws me from a job, I don't assume all of them are crooked or bad at what they do.

Sorry for the long post. My .02.

Last edited by SgtScott31; 10-05-2012 at 23:13..
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:11   #13
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Guns will ALWAYS have a stigma around them because they have the capability of being lethal. Many people become nervous when they see a civilian with a gun simply because of that fact. You also have the people that have the belief that only LEO's and people in the military should have firearms. This leads to phone calls to 911 in OC states that the police HAVE to respond to. Depending on the demeanor and the choice of words by the caller (who is already most likely afraid, and/or anti 2nd), this may affect the way the responding officer approaches the situation. A previous experience may also have an impcat on the way the officer handles things. These people deal with the scum of the earth daily, and the scum of the earth with a firearm certainly does not have the same intentions as a law abiding citizen open carrying legally. Keep all that in mind before condemning the way an officer approaches someone with a gun. They do not know you or your intentions and will always approach the situation as such.

In my eyes, people who open carry do it to let everyone know that they are exercising their 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms and are proud that they are doing so. There is nothing wrong with this, however nobody who does should ever be upset by the attention it causes, both good and bad.

Even if OC were allowed in FL, I would never do it. I prefer for NOBODY around me to be aware that I am armed. On more than one occasion, I have went to reach for something high on a shelf in a store and exposed my pistol to some really weird looks ranging from disgusted to frightened to the nod of agreement. I would never invite this kind of attention.

Just my .02
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Old 11-22-2012, 15:12   #14
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Why are there no man with a book calls?
Because "words will never hurt you"
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:07   #15
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Why are there no man with a book calls?
Most people wouldn't recognize a book when they see it anymore. It would be a "Man with a vaguely familiar looking object" call.

The thing is, I'm betting that police operate under what the capabilities are rather than the intentions. That's because its hard to gauge intentions at a glance. You have a weapon, its has the capability of being a threat, and due caution will be exercised until they have enough interaction to gauge intentions. You're not looked at as a criminal. You're looked at as a potential threat, a man with a gun call came in by someone concerned (justified or usually not), and has to be checked out.

Criminals tend to be evasive, belligerent, etc. So when an OCer gets his dander up and starts acting like that, it raises red flags. They ARE in fact obstructing, and uncooperative, although that may be justified in their eyes "defending their rights", and may be perfectly legal. While that may be true, it still makes them look like the kind of duck the cops deal with a lot, and the cop will lean toward treating them like that kind of duck.

Perhaps the OCer has an image of "cops" in general and responds to that stereotype, rather than treating this particular cop as an individual, even as he himself rails against being stereotyped and not treated as an individual worth the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Randy

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Old 10-07-2012, 14:05   #16
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Who says they do? From what I see, most OC stops are caused by citizens calling in "man with a gun". They have to check it out.

When you get pulled over for speeding, aren't they also "assuming" the possibility that you may pull out a gun and kill them?
I would agree. Society has changed over the years. After the late 80's the cops no longer liked people getting out of the car without reason. Prior to that it was almost normal to get out and chat with an officer and even sit in the car with them while they wrote a ticket. But violence has changed things.

For oc stops I agree that most are people calling in with "man with a gun" calls. Some officers do act like people are the enemy. But when I see a lot of these taped confrontations people are just trying to set the leo up and that is also wrong.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:00   #17
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Who says they do? From what I see, most OC stops are caused by citizens calling in "man with a gun". They have to check it out.

When you get pulled over for speeding, aren't they also "assuming" the possibility that you may pull out a gun and kill them?
Soccer moms are guilty.
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Old 10-04-2012, 13:55   #18
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Plain and simple if you arent in a police uniform you have no known character of not being a good guy to the general public. most people asume all cops are good guys. and a uniform puts people at ease that arent used to seeing a (gun) out in the open. to most people primaraly in the northeast to see a person wearing a gun out in the open it intimadates them. just my take.
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Old 10-04-2012, 14:32   #19
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Plain and simple if you arent in a police uniform you have no known character of not being a good guy to the general public. most people asume all cops are good guys. and a uniform puts people at ease that arent used to seeing a (gun) out in the open. to most people primaraly in the northeast to see a person wearing a gun out in the open it intimadates them. just my take.
I'm not sure putting you in a police uniform makes you have a "known" character. There's plenty of bad apples out there in all professions, including LE.

That said... When an open carrier acts like a criminal (ie.. "Am I being detained", starts quoting the constitution, etc..)... it's obviously going to make most officers think something is up.
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Old 10-04-2012, 16:05   #20
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That said... When an open carrier acts like a criminal (ie.. "Am I being detained", starts quoting the constitution, etc..)... it's obviously going to make most officers think something is up.
WHAT!!!! If you ask why you being detained you are acting like a criminal????

You have no understanding of what the US Constitution and BOR is about. Get you money back from your history teachers.
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Old 10-04-2012, 20:37   #21
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WHAT!!!! If you ask why you being detained you are acting like a criminal????

You have no understanding of what the US Constitution and BOR is about. Get you money back from your history teachers.
Obviously, you know nothing about me. Asking if you're being detained is one thing. Repeatedly asking, attempting to talk over the officer, etc.. are all shining examples that are easy to find on youtube.

There is a time and a place to argue being unlawfully detained, argue the merits of the Constitution, etc. The side of the road, is not it.

Open Carriers (a lot of them) open carry to get a reaction. When they get it, they cry.

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The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
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Old 10-06-2012, 14:10   #22
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Obviously, you know nothing about me. Asking if you're being detained is one thing. Repeatedly asking, attempting to talk over the officer, etc.. are all shining examples that are easy to find on youtube.

There is a time and a place to argue being unlawfully detained, argue the merits of the Constitution, etc. The side of the road, is not it.

Open Carriers (a lot of them) open carry to get a reaction. When they get it, they cry.

IGF
I do know what you posted and commented on that. The above post reveals that a citizen exercising his rights gets your panties in a wad.
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Old 10-04-2012, 17:26   #23
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Originally Posted by Remington 870 View Post
Plain and simple if you arent in a police uniform you have no known character of not being a good guy to the general public. most people asume all cops are good guys. and a uniform puts people at ease that arent used to seeing a (gun) out in the open. to most people primaraly in the northeast to see a person wearing a gun out in the open it intimadates them. just my take.
Guns in the open are quite common in Vermont,sometimes folks that move here from less than Free states are not used to seeing them in the open.
Or worse yet folks walking down the road with shotguns or rifles in the pursuit of hunting.

If they don't like not having street lights or curbs.sidewalks and folks exerciseing their God given rights them maybe they should stay in Ma.,N.J., N.Y. or CT. and then they won't have to witness folks enjoying Freedom. SJ 40
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Old 10-04-2012, 15:12   #24
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Many in LE believe that only LE should carry weapons.
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Old 10-04-2012, 15:52   #25
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Many in LE believe that only LE should carry weapons.
I don't believe that is a correct statement... maybe your assumption. And, much might depend upon where in the US you live as to what the local LEO attitudes are. But, as a blanket statement I think it is a bit irresponsible.

If you have any .. valid... documentation to support that statement, please share it with us.
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