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Old 06-14-2012, 05:46   #1
GasTurbine
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Why are Glocks always called DAO guns?

I know they categorize it that way because of it longer pull, but the fact is, (besides going thru all the safeties) it preforms just one action...releasing the striker, thus, technically making it an SA gun.

I know that Armslist has "Striker fired" added to their "Action types"...I hope this catches on.
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Old 06-14-2012, 05:57   #2
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The designation has nothing to do with the length of the trigger pull. Since there is no hammer to cock or decock, it is designated DAO.

I just love the sound effects on some TV shows when you hear someone cocking a Glock.

Think in terms of revolvers:

Single Action
SA/DA
DAO
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:45   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyR View Post
The designation has nothing to do with the length of the trigger pull. Since there is no hammer to cock or decock, it is designated DAO.

I just love the sound effects on some TV shows when you hear someone cocking a Glock.

Think in terms of revolvers:

Single Action
SA/DA
DAO
Even better is when a movie cop rack's his/her slide, to let you know they mean business.
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:30   #4
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Originally Posted by PAGunner View Post
Even better is when a movie cop rack's his/her slide, to let you know they mean business.
I can't recall which TV show - maybe Criminal Minds - JJ (A.J. Cook)

Police guys get ready to break down a door - guy racks the slide - then they kick in the door & rush in - same guy racks the slide again to let the BG inside know he means business.
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:31   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyR View Post
The designation has nothing to do with the length of the trigger pull. Since there is no hammer to cock or decock, it is designated DAO.

I just love the sound effects on some TV shows when you hear someone cocking a Glock.

Think in terms of revolvers:

Single Action
SA/DA
DAO
Of course it is not DAO...you have an invisible hammer that you pull down...
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Old 06-14-2012, 05:58   #6
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Because they are! Drawing the trigger to the rear completes the setting of the striker spring before it releases the striker.

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Old 06-14-2012, 06:02   #7
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The striker is only preloaded in normal conditions. The trigger pull brings it back the rest of the way and the trigger spring assists with that pull. If there were no trigger spring it would feel more like a revolver.

Do I have that right guys?
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:07   #8
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I feel you guys, but typically (in "normal" terms) when we say "Double Action" its referring to the (first action) setting of the hammer spring. The second action is releasing of said spring. Since striker fired pistol already have the sticker pin loaded in normal conditions, that should make it a single action...at lease in my eyes. Oh well.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:12   #9
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Originally Posted by GasTurbine View Post
I feel you guys, but typically (in "normal" terms) when we say "Double Action" its referring to the (first action) setting of the hammer spring. The second action is releasing of said spring. Since striker fired pistol already have the sticker pin loaded in normal conditions, that should make it a single action...at lease in my eyes. Oh well.
Yeah, I just call them "striker fired." That's all you really need to know about the action and how it compares to other pistols.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:19   #10
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The "Safe" action is different than a normal double action trigger or a normal single action trigger.
The reason that IDPA classifies it in the same category as a Beretta 92 which is a true double action first shot gun is that the striker isn't fully to the rear like others have mentioned. I find this animation really lets you see why IDPA classifies it that way:

Pay particular attention to the striker during the trigger pull and you will see the "Why" to your question.
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:48   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GasTurbine View Post
I feel you guys, but typically (in "normal" terms) when we say "Double Action" its referring to the (first action) setting of the hammer spring. The second action is releasing of said spring. Since striker fired pistol already have the sticker pin loaded in normal conditions, that should make it a single action...at lease in my eyes. Oh well.
Watch the video above....you'll see why you're wrong.

There are TWO actions happening from the pulling of a GLOCK trigger, not one.

Still, they're striker fired, not DOA.
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:01   #12
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I always think of a true double action having second strike capability. Anything less is not true double action because it takes an additional separate action to get the gun to fire.

Maybe Glock is "two" action - or 1 1/2 action - but it is not double action.
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:24   #13
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Originally Posted by emtjr928 View Post
Because they are! Drawing the trigger to the rear completes the setting of the striker spring before it releases the striker.

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You're absolutely right! Finally someone besides me has seen a skeleton model in action. I also saw a video on it this year.
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:57   #14
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Because they are! Drawing the trigger to the rear completes the setting of the striker spring before it releases the striker.

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Unlike the SAO M&P, where the striker is 100% cocked and ready to fire.
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:10   #15
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Unlike the SAO M&P, where the striker is 100% cocked and ready to fire.
Yes, this is technically true. In reality the M&P design, and that of the Springfield XD series, is a SAO, but S&W classes their M&P line as DAO pistols. Perhaps because there is no such designation of SAO (this is a guess on my part).
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:39   #16
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Yes,this is technically true. In reality the M&P design, and that of theSpringfield XD series, is a SAO, but S&W classes their M&P line as DAOpistols. Perhaps because there is no such designation of SAO (this is a guesson my part).
My x5 is designated by Sig as SAO and I also agree on your stand about the trigger of the M&P - it is way better than off the box Glock's, especially gens up to 3, gen4 is different, maybe I find it better because I only shot “-“ connectors.


I also agree on the defining the action from what the trigger is doing, but in the case of M&P and XD, manufacturer was intentionally looking for that trigger to “feel” as DA trigger, it was market targeting, so things are not so simple…

There is of course designation based on the mechanical properties of the system (trigger) but generally speaking, the gun should be “black box” a shooter does not have to know how the mechanics work, you feel this by the trigger, it’s a user interface, you designate the trigger by the way you feel it, that’s why (I could be wrong, and actually I’m not looking for discussion, it’s just an opinion…) in regard that Glock does not have a second strike capability as for instance Sig 250, I would say: mechanically it is DA pistol, by user interface, by the way you operate the gun it is SA.
Safe Action for me is just marketing gimmick, that little thing on the trigger is mechanically anything else but safety, there is no probable way of pressing on this trigger, by finger or any otherway, without pressing on the “safety” so IMHO this thing is far from “Safety Action”and there are plenty of cases to support such idea…
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:07   #17
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To me one of the reasons may be because every time the trigger is pulled and the gun fires the trigger pull is the same as opposed to a revolver fired double and then single action or the first and subsequent shots on a traditional double action.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:22   #18
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Originally Posted by GasTurbine View Post
I feel you guys, but typically (in "normal" terms) when we say "Double Action" its referring to the (first action) setting of the hammer spring. The second action is releasing of said spring. Since striker fired pistol already have the sticker pin loaded in normal conditions, that should make it a single action...at lease in my eyes. Oh well.
A single action requires no further setting of the hammer. The trigger strictly releases it. The striker in a Glock still has to be pulled back the rest of the way and then released. If a Glock was SA we would have a much sweeter trigger pull but would then need an external safety.
That would make it "not" a Glock.

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Old 06-14-2012, 11:16   #19
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A single action requires no further setting of the hammer. The trigger strictly releases it. The striker in a Glock still has to be pulled back the rest of the way and then released. If a Glock was SA we would have a much sweeter trigger pull but would then need an external safety.
That would make it "not" a Glock.

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Nope. Example is the M&P Smith and Wesson. S&W defines the M&P as a DAO pistol but in reality, the striker is held in a fully cocking position prior to release. The trigger only does one thing; it releases the striker via the sear. It does not cock the striker any more than it is already. I believe the XD series operates this same way.
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:57   #20
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The BATF classifies the GLOCK as DAO because it completes the cocking of the firing pin (loading of the striker) and then releases it (double action). The gun is incapable of single action fire, therefore, the Glock is double action only (DAO).

So if the question remains, why do people call a Glock double action, your answer is above.

If you want to believe it's not double action because it doesn't cock without racking the slide, or the pressing of the trigger doesn't do all of the cocking, or because it doesn't have second strike capability that's your choice.

However, the one thing Glock is certainly not is single action. Single Action by definition does only one single task; releases the hammer/striker. If ANY cocking occurs with the trigger press it is NOT single Action.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:01   #21
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Nope. Example is the M&P Smith and Wesson. S&W defines the M&P as a DAO pistol but in reality, the striker is held in a fully cocking position prior to release. The trigger only does one thing; it releases the striker via the sear. It does not cock the striker any more than it is already. I believe the XD series operates this same way.
I absolutely agree, I believe I did ask DannyR in his blog about it ( I cannot find the post right now...) but IMHO we should look at actions in two ways: mechanical properties and user interface... By user interface Glock is SA gun, just as 1911, as much as strange this would look in initially, but if you think, in both mechanics, if you have misfire for any reason, you should operate the slide in order to chamber fresh round...
For me, in regard of the explanations in the previous two posts above, DAO is a self loading gun that will operate the striker with every pull of the trigger lever, regardless of what is the slide doing, same as P250 or for example "double strike capability" of some Taurus models...
BTW, Glock does designates his guns as "DAO" in some of their manuals, especially where they have charts with the models.
In regard of the two other pistols mentioned - the M&P and XD, I read somewhere that the trigger was designed intentionally to mimic long DA pull, even the two guns have the strikers fully cocked by the cycling of the slide...
Mr. Metkalf had a article in one of the S&W magazines, when those models came up, some 3-4 years ago if I'm not mistaking, where he was explaining the way M&P partially cocks the striker, but in the same time, there was a video by the American Gunsmith Association I believe, where you can see that the sear only releases the striker, it is not cocking it additionally... I wrote Mr. Metkalf's an e-mail, asking him to explain why the difference between his article and the video, my only intent was to learn something possibly, unfortunately I never had answer...
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Old 06-15-2012, 13:22   #22
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I absolutely agree, I believe I did ask DannyR in his blog about it ( I cannot find the post right now...) but IMHO we should look at actions in two ways: mechanical properties and user interface... By user interface Glock is SA gun, just as 1911, as much as strange this would look in initially, but if you think, in both mechanics, if you have misfire for any reason, you should operate the slide in order to chamber fresh round...
For me, in regard of the explanations in the previous two posts above, DAO is a self loading gun that will operate the striker with every pull of the trigger lever, regardless of what is the slide doing, same as P250 or for example "double strike capability" of some Taurus models...
BTW, Glock does designates his guns as "DAO" in some of their manuals, especially where they have charts with the models.
In regard of the two other pistols mentioned - the M&P and XD, I read somewhere that the trigger was designed intentionally to mimic long DA pull, even the two guns have the strikers fully cocked by the cycling of the slide...
Mr. Metkalf had a article in one of the S&W magazines, when those models came up, some 3-4 years ago if I'm not mistaking, where he was explaining the way M&P partially cocks the striker, but in the same time, there was a video by the American Gunsmith Association I believe, where you can see that the sear only releases the striker, it is not cocking it additionally... I wrote Mr. Metkalf's an e-mail, asking him to explain why the difference between his article and the video, my only intent was to learn something possibly, unfortunately I never had answer...
With DAO pistols, there are two flavors. Those which do not have a second strike capability and those which do. Most don't and the Glock is one example. The Kel-Tec P11 is a DAO design and does have second strike capability, as does the Ruger LCP.
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Old 06-16-2012, 06:40   #23
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I absolutely agree, I believe I did ask DannyR in his blog about it ( I cannot find the post right now...)


Click-> http://glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=7

Click-> http://glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=426
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:09   #24
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Thank you! Your blog is excellent reference material and your posts are always very well structured and explained, I'm glad there are so many people like you here, great place to learn things, also to express opinion, I guess.
I understand the point with the DAO, in fact I have absolutely no problem to go with the manufacturer's designation of the action of the trigger or something else, I was just curious why companies go one time with one explanation ( technical ) than they go with another - subjective, user's interface... It's all for profit after all... Moving the sear thousand of an inch is not enough to designate it as DAO... sounds to me just as the rest of the basically useless stuff as "Positive Sear Engagement" in the 1911 firing group... I don't know, marketing tricks maybe...
Aside from the technical part IMHO we should look at the gun and the action/trigger system as a black box - the use should not care what is the mechanics in the gun, you care only for the trigger, the pull and so on, if it feels as SA - it is SA gun, if it operates as SA - it is SA gun... I don't know, someone to correct me, but Glock operates exactly as a SA gun, actually from what I read the designers were looking for such a hybrid feeling and mechanics...
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:45   #25
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Glock doesn't call their action DAO, but rather "Safe Action". IDPA uses the same terminology. There's a difference.
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