[DonGlock26]

I'm watching "The Pacific" mini-series by HBO (excellent) and stumbled across this eyewitness account of a Japanese soldier shot many, many times with small arms fire as he attempted to close with the Marines.

The Pacific: Anatomy of a War (HBO) - YouTube

The Pacific: Anatomy of a War (HBO) - YouTube

2:58

To me, it kind of puts stopping power in perspective. If you face a truly determined foe, you may need multiple hits until you hit the CNS. Even the heart is iffy for a while. Food for thought.



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[Angry Fist]

I have heard of duct taped and drugged VC fighters taking huge amounts of lead.

[John Biltz]

Go read some accounts what people did to earn Medal of Honors.

[Berto]

Agreed......though it's only fair to point out your average thug isn't likely as committed as the battle crazed, starved, delusional Japanese soldier with literally nothing to lose.
Still, anything's possible and anyone worth shooting is worth shooting 'well'.

[SJ 40]

Happened earlier in history . The Philippines ,the US Army had this super new pistol,Colt double action in 38 cal. . They weren't working to well against drugged up warriors so the Colt SAA were pressed back into service,the 45 colt performed better after all it was originally used to put horses down.
For more information


http://mandirigma.org/?p=889
SJ 40

[ChiefWPD]

Originally Posted by SJ 40

Happened earlier in history . The Philippines ,the US Army had this super new pistol,Colt double action in 38 cal. . They weren't working to well against drugged up warriors so the Colt SAA were pressed back into service,the 45 colt performed better after all it was originally used to put horses down. .....

I believe the troops 30'40 Krag rifles weren't putting the Moro warriors down very well either.

[M&P Shooter]

The mindset and determination of a Japanese soldier is a lot stronger then that of a crackhead or carjacker. I would never fire once at a attacker and after a couple to the body I am going head shots.

[dsink]

Originally Posted by ChiefWPD

I believe the troops 30'40 Krag rifles weren't putting the Moro warriors down very well either.

I was about to add that as well. That fact always gets left out when people talk about it.

[SJ 40]

Originally Posted by ChiefWPD

I believe the troops 30'40 Krag rifles weren't putting the Moro warriors down very well either.

They should have brought back the trap door as well,nothing like getting hit with a 405 gr. or 500 gr. hunk of lead. Well maybe a browning 50. SJ 40

[DEADEYEGUY]

The .30-.40 Krags were having trouble putting them down. The .45 Long Colt revolvers may have been a bit better than the .38's but not by much. The only gun they really trusted to put them Moro's down was the Winchester Model 97 12 gage shotgun. Worked well in the Trenches in WWI and the 12 gage is still doing good work to this day,

[tsmo1066]

Originally Posted by DEADEYEGUY

The .30-.40 Krags were having trouble putting them down. The .45 Long Colt revolvers may have been a bit better than the .38's but not by much. The only gun they really trusted to put them Moro's down was the Winchester Model 97 12 gage shotgun. Worked well in the Trenches in WWI and the 12 gage is still doing good work to this day,

This. The myth of the .45 was greatly bolstered by the Philippian Insurrection, but the fact is that neither the .45s nor the much more powerful 30-40 Krags did a whole lot to stop the Moros.

In one account I read years ago a Marine described two soldiers in his squad getting into a fist fight over which one would get to carry the 12 gauge.

Nobody got into fist fights over who would get to carry the newly re-issued .45s.

[John Biltz]

Originally Posted by ChiefWPD

I believe the troops 30'40 Krag rifles weren't putting the Moro warriors down very well either.

I've heard the .45 did not either.

Here is the thing about war, if you are not talking armor or snipers, volume of fire is a lot more important than caliber. There are very few people who can take the time to aim and fire accurately when rounds are impacting around them. Generally, whoever manages to shoot the most rounds in the general area establishes fire superiority, maneuvers and then wins the fight.

[FL Airedale]

Our military uses FMJ ammo. If they used Gold Dots, they'd have better stopping power. Hollowpoints do violate a treaty.

I just don't understand such rules in war. Isn't that kind of like getting in a street fight and discussing rules first?

[dkf]

Originally Posted by FL Airedale

Our military uses FMJ ammo. If they used Gold Dots, they'd have better stopping power. Hollowpoints do violate a treaty.

I just don't understand such rules in war. Isn't that kind of like getting in a street fight and discussing rules first?

The Hague Convention of 1899 Declaration III basically banned the HP bullets for wartime however modern bullet design is starting to skirt around the "rules". http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

As far as I am concerned the only rules of war are that THERE ARE NO RULES. I would have told them to stick their treaty up their ass. So many people in Europe thought you control everything with rules and regs although that setiment has since spread throughout the world including here in the states.

[Angry Fist]

Originally Posted by dkf

The Hague Convention of 1899 Declaration III basically banned the HP bullets for wartime however modern bullet design is starting to skirt around the "rules". http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

As far as I am concerned the only rules of war are that THERE ARE NO RULES. I would have told them to stick their treaty up their ass. So many people in Europe thought you control everything with rules and regs although that setiment has since spread throughout the world including here in the states.

I have always wondered why we don't junk the Hauge Convention. Fight to win. There are other treaties that try to cover the rules of war, and we ignore them, such as the ban on use of incindieries. We stockpile nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons, and will burn enemy cities to the ground, but ban bullets that work.

[Dbltapglock]

delete

[dkf]

Originally Posted by LibertyGlock

I find it absurd that our military leaders feel they still have to follow the Hague Convention and ban JHP ammo in war while Obama sits in his big office playing God deciding on whom to assassinate next using drones. Isn't there a bit of hypocrisy in this? I'd say, let's give our men and women in uniform the best ammo with best stopping power, so they can come home alive.

And the guy the drone strike killed was a US citizen. Don't get me wrong the guy was a POS but I have a problem with sneaking into a country and executing a citizen of our country. Now they want to fly drones over US soil.

Google Roufoss Mk211. It is a .50cal round that can go through a block wall at over a 1 mile away and make hamburger out of anyone or anything on the other side. It make a .500sw JHP look like a BB gun.

[cowboy1964]

Deleted

[glock20c10mm]

Originally Posted by DonGlock26

I'm watching "The Pacific" mini-series by HBO (excellent) and stumbled across this eyewitness account of a Japanese soldier shot many, many times with small arms fire as he attempted to close with the Marines.

To me, it kind of puts stopping power in perspective. If you face a truly determined foe, you may need multiple hits until you hit the CNS. Even the heart is iffy for a while. Food for thought.

Definitely food for thought. But I believe there is a bigger picture to look at this from.

Somehow some people over most others cheat specific, normally deadly or incapacitating, experiences, either completely, or for more time than is normally expected.

Most people die after being struck by lightning. Some, after even multiple strikes over time, don't.

Being immersed in truly frigid water for some amount of time will put most people into hypothermia, eventually killing them. Other seem to be able to shrug it off for far too long than we would normally expect.

Excessive heat will give most people heat stroke in whatever amount of time. Some people break the rules and endure the heat others didn't, at least for longer than would be thought possible.

And then there are shootings like you brought up.

In self defense, when it comes to stopping a "determined" adversary, it's all about planning for the worst and hoping for the best within the parameters capable at the time. If things go as one would hope, some foes succumb in one way or another fairly quickly, where others seem more machine than human.

Like you said; "If you face a truly determined foe, you may need multiple hits until you hit the CNS." I agree. And then there are other aspects we can control for a hopeful best outcome depending on each individuals belief of what can or won't help, including things like:

1) Choosing JHP over FMJ.

2) Practicing proficiency with whatever weapon is chosen.

3) Choose the most powerful load that is still practical.

4) Carry as much ammo as practical.

And so on.

A little luck never hurts either. Though that isn't so easily controlled.

[countrygun]

Somebody asked me once why my "truck gun" was a Marlin in 45/70? I told him "well if I have to stop the truck, get out and shoot something....I'd like it to stay shot"

Just a little FWIW.

[CanyonMan]

Originally Posted by countrygun

Somebody asked me once why my "truck gun" was a Marlin in 45/70? I told him "well if I have to stop the truck, get out and shoot something....I'd like it to stay shot"

Just a little FWIW.

Your the man.... +1




CM

[striker6126]

Originally Posted by countrygun

Somebody asked me once why my "truck gun" was a Marlin in 45/70? I told him "well if I have to stop the truck, get out and shoot something....I'd like it to stay shot"

Just a little FWIW.

I agree. My guide gun lives in my truck

[Batesmotel]

I love how this is debated again and again, largely by people who never served in the infantry.

Ball ammo is the best choice for an infantryman. Treaties and the Laws Of Land Warfare aside, it is the best all round choice on the battle field for engaging troops (armored, unarmored, barricaded Etc) and equipment.

I have even heard one video commando state that Grunts should cary different ammo in different magazines. And switch out between Ball, AP, Match, Tracer Etc as needed for the situation.

There is nothing wrong with ball ammo in a fight. Also the idea that a wounded fighter takes others out of the fight to help him is a myth based on some western ideal of helping the wounded.

Most armies care little for the wounded as they are no longer an asset in the fight but a drain on resources. Look up the casualty statistics for the Mid East Theatre in WWI. They left the wounded to die or just executed them. The Turks wasted little on medical care. This is more common than Americans think.

[Paul53]

Originally Posted by glock20c10mm

Definitely food for thought. But I believe there is a bigger picture to look at this from.

Somehow some people over most others cheat specific, normally deadly or incapacitating, experiences, either completely, or for more time than is normally expected.

Most people die after being struck by lightning. Some, after even multiple strikes over time, don't.

Being immersed in truly frigid water for some amount of time will put most people into hypothermia, eventually killing them. Other seem to be able to shrug it off for far too long than we would normally expect.

Excessive heat will give most people heat stroke in whatever amount of time. Some people break the rules and endure the heat others didn't, at least for longer than would be thought possible.

And then there are shootings like you brought up.

In self defense, when it comes to stopping a "determined" adversary, it's all about planning for the worst and hoping for the best within the parameters capable at the time. If things go as one would hope, some foes succumb in one way or another fairly quickly, where others seem more machine than human.

Like you said; "If you face a truly determined foe, you may need multiple hits until you hit the CNS." I agree. And then there are other aspects we can control for a hopeful best outcome depending on each individuals belief of what can or won't help, including things like:

1) Choosing JHP over FMJ.

2) Practicing proficiency with whatever weapon is chosen.

3) Choose the most powerful load that is still practical.

4) Carry as much ammo as practical.

And so on.

A little luck never hurts either. Though that isn't so easily controlled.

Probably the best thought out response I've seen on GT ever. Thank you, I bow to your wisdom and writing abilities sir!

[DonGlock26]

Originally Posted by glock20c10mm

Definitely food for thought. But I believe there is a bigger picture to look at this from.

Somehow some people over most others cheat specific, normally deadly or incapacitating, experiences, either completely, or for more time than is normally expected.

Most people die after being struck by lightning. Some, after even multiple strikes over time, don't.

Being immersed in truly frigid water for some amount of time will put most people into hypothermia, eventually killing them. Other seem to be able to shrug it off for far too long than we would normally expect.

Excessive heat will give most people heat stroke in whatever amount of time. Some people break the rules and endure the heat others didn't, at least for longer than would be thought possible.

And then there are shootings like you brought up.

In self defense, when it comes to stopping a "determined" adversary, it's all about planning for the worst and hoping for the best within the parameters capable at the time. If things go as one would hope, some foes succumb in one way or another fairly quickly, where others seem more machine than human.

Like you said; "If you face a truly determined foe, you may need multiple hits until you hit the CNS." I agree. And then there are other aspects we can control for a hopeful best outcome depending on each individuals belief of what can or won't help, including things like:

1) Choosing JHP over FMJ.

2) Practicing proficiency with whatever weapon is chosen.

3) Choose the most powerful load that is still practical.

4) Carry as much ammo as practical.

And so on.

A little luck never hurts either. Though that isn't so easily controlled.

I agree. Train hard, and hopefully fight easy.


_