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Old 02-19-2012, 14:19   #1
ajgranda
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The real reason NYPD disallowed Kahrs for off duty!

I've been hearing and reading a lot of misinformation on the subject. So here is the truth. It's more like Kahr dropped NYPD.




http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011...rass-kahr-arms
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Old 02-19-2012, 14:22   #2
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Truth be told I think NYPD brass would prefer it if their Police were unarmed and just talked real nice to people so that they wouldn't break the law.
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Old 02-19-2012, 14:52   #3
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well what is the trigger weight on those Kahrs, 2 pounds?????
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Old 02-19-2012, 14:58   #4
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looks like some of the NYCPD have poor firearm handling skills

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Old 02-19-2012, 15:38   #5
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The NYPD and other departments fear of negligent discharges is mind boggling to me. A former LEO myself, I think the risk of missing a target due to a 10lb or more trigger pull is much greater than the risk of a 5lb trigger being too light. I understand adrenaline and all, but there is nothing wrong with most factory triggers as far as safety is concerned.
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Old 02-19-2012, 15:55   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajgranda View Post
I've been hearing and reading a lot of misinformation on the subject. So here is the truth. It's more like Kahr dropped NYPD.




http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011...rass-kahr-arms

Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?

Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.

Years ago a prohibition on new Kahrs was enacted with current ones being grandfathered. Now, there has been such a spate of severe trigger failures that FTS has decided to remove them totally from service for officer safety.

To the rest of the posters with their wise comments, how many armed officers do you train and maintain pistols, rifles, shotguns and sub guns each year?

If the answer is less than 35,000 then may I suggest you could learn a thing or two from the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section

They are always willing to help brother departments
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Old 02-19-2012, 16:13   #7
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I looked the gun up and it is a trigger cocking DAO pistol. Your comments has me curious. Are you saying the failures are due to the gun firing without the trigger pulled say from dropping it? Otherwise I don't see how it could fire without the officer pulling the trigger.
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Old 02-19-2012, 16:35   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier View Post
I looked the gun up and it is a trigger cocking DAO pistol. Your comments has me curious. Are you saying the failures are due to the gun firing without the trigger pulled say from dropping it? Otherwise I don't see how it could fire without the officer pulling the trigger.
tagged for clarification and answer.
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Old 02-19-2012, 16:56   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?

Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.

Years ago a prohibition on new Kahrs was enacted with current ones being grandfathered. Now, there has been such a spate of severe trigger failures that FTS has decided to remove them totally from service for officer safety.

To the rest of the posters with their wise comments, how many armed officers do you train and maintain pistols, rifles, shotguns and sub guns each year?

If the answer is less than 35,000 then may I suggest you could learn a thing or two from the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section

They are always willing to help brother departments
What pistol meets your high standards?
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:15   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narkcop View Post
What pistol meets your high standards?
Not my standards rather the standards of the NYPD. BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW.

BTW Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all have no problems meeting the requirements. So what is Kahr's issue
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:37   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Not my standards rather the standards of the NYPD. BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW.

BTW Glock, Smith and Wesson and Sig all have no problems meeting the requirements. So what is Kahr's issue
"BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW?"

They are cops! When it comes to guns they know nothing! As a community, they are known to be sub-par shooters who don't care about practicing or training. As an organization, the NYPD is much more concerned about the legal ramifications of their officers shooting someone than making a gun more functional or safer. They would be far better off focusing a little more on training their idiots than making a perfectly good gun idiot proof.

"what is Kahr's issue?"

They use a different trigger mechanism than all the other manufacturers you mentioned. Why would you think they COULD do the exact same thing to theirs? If the designers of a machine say it can't be done, why would you doubt them? I guarantee you that Kahr's engineers know more about P9s than the NYPD does.
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Old 02-20-2012, 17:45   #12
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Not my standards rather the standards of the NYPD. BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW....
So what is Kahr's issue
Kahr's only "issue" might be that they don't want to screw up a safe and reliable trigger design to meet an arbitrary standard. Give the gun such a high trigger pull weight that you almost couldn't shoot it when you wanted to? Probably doesn't even fit within their trigger design parameters....

And I agree with the part in bold, "BUT WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW...." Taken in the literal sense, that statement is likely true, with hiring quotas pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Now onto the next two pages of hilarity.

Nail
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Old 02-19-2012, 17:06   #13
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Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?
He is saying that by refusing to accommodate the NYPD's ridiculous demand of a 13lb trigger, Kahr is effectively dropping NYPD.

I agree with Kahr that a 13lb trigger would be ridiculous. I don't think my wife could even pull a 13lb trigger, let alone squeeze off accurate shots. Also, I don't see how you could accidentally pull a Kahr trigger- the pull is so loooong. Especially when Glock triggers are shorter and lighter... Which brings me to my next point.

I recently did some research on the Kahr action, and I'll be honest, it has me concerned. Whatever they call it, it's not truly double action, it's 3/4 of the way to single action, which means if something slips inside, it CAN fire. Glocks are the same way, but not including the trigger safety, it has two internal safeties, which means you have a backup if one fails. The Kahr SHOULD never fail, but I am a service tech, and I know mechanical things that should never fail still do fail. I think Kahr calls the striker block an "internal safety", but to me, a safety is something that accounts for failure of normal operation... Like what Glock has.

Anyway, not bashing Kahr... but I am second guessing the PM9 purchase I had planned for this week. It might turn into a 26.
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Old 02-19-2012, 17:30   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Angel View Post
He is saying that by refusing to accommodate the NYPD's ridiculous demand of a 13lb trigger, Kahr is effectively dropping NYPD.
Precisely!
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Old 02-19-2012, 17:34   #15
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Anyway, not bashing Kahr... but I am second guessing the PM9 purchase I had planned for this week. It might turn into a 26.
I wouldn't second guess the PM9. That's going to be my next purchase for Hot weather carry. It is considerably smaller and lighter than the G26. The G26 is not a "true" subcompact. The same goes for XD40sc. If that doesn't matter to you then go for the G26, although I never cared for it's ergos when I had one and bought the XD40sc.
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Old 02-19-2012, 17:43   #16
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I wouldn't second guess the PM9. That's going to be my next purchase for Hot weather carry. It is considerably smaller and lighter than the G26. The G26 is not a "true" subcompact. The same goes for XD40sc. If that doesn't matter to you then go for the G26, although I never cared for it's ergos when I had one and bought the XD40sc.
I actually like the ergos of the 26... just feels like a smaller version of my 19. My dad has a 27 and I love it, but you are right about not being a "true subcompact". It's kinda big... which is the only thing pushing me towards the Kahr.
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Old 02-19-2012, 20:21   #17
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I actually like the ergos of the 26... just feels like a smaller version of my 19. My dad has a 27 and I love it, but you are right about not being a "true subcompact". It's kinda big... which is the only thing pushing me towards the Kahr.
I have PM9, G26, G19, G17. So maybe I can help.

The PM9 is a great gun with a special purpose. If you need a VERY small gun for personal protection then this is it. This is NOT the gun I want for home protection. This is not the gun I would want in a protracted battle. To be perfectly honest, it is not fun at the range. It is on the other hand perfect for it's job.

If you are looking for a side arm/home protection/target shooting gun, then you can look at the Glock line.

The worst part about the Glock line is deciding if you want baby, mid, full sized gun. I find most shooters shoot the full size slightly better, but I think the more experienced you are the more the advantages of the full size disappear.

One more thing, I find the conversion kit worth it.
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Old 02-19-2012, 17:44   #18
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Originally Posted by seanmac45 View Post
Just how do you get Kahr dropping the NYPD out of that article?

Kahr has been given MULTIPLE chances by the NYPD over the years to remediate their POS pistol. Kahr tried but couldn't get their guns to hold a trigger job to the department standards.

Years ago a prohibition on new Kahrs was enacted with current ones being grandfathered. Now, there has been such a spate of severe trigger failures that FTS has decided to remove them totally from service for officer safety.

To the rest of the posters with their wise comments, how many armed officers do you train and maintain pistols, rifles, shotguns and sub guns each year?

If the answer is less than 35,000 then may I suggest you could learn a thing or two from the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section

They are always willing to help brother departments
If the officers took the time to learn proper firearm safety they wouldn't be having all these "accidents"! Anyone who thinks a 12-13# trigger is required for safety is an idiot. Kahr was not able to make their trigger pull that bad so the NYPD disallowed them.
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:02   #19
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Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
If the officers took the time to learn proper firearm safety they wouldn't be having all these "accidents"! Anyone who thinks a 12-13# trigger is required for safety is an idiot. Kahr was not able to make their trigger pull that bad so the NYPD disallowed them.
Exactly! I think Kahr was able to push the trigger pull up to 10 lbs and still have it function nicely. Obviously that wasn't good enough for NYPD. I really feel for all the NYPD officers out there.
I still can't believe that they have 12 lb triggers on their Glocks. It's no wonder so many never legitimately pass their qualifications without some assistance.
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Old 02-19-2012, 18:10   #20
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Originally Posted by ronin.45 View Post
If the officers took the time to learn proper firearm safety they wouldn't be having all these "accidents"! Anyone who thinks a 12-13# trigger is required for safety is an idiot. Kahr was not able to make their trigger pull that bad so the NYPD disallowed them.
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