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Old 04-09-2011, 07:48   #1
greenlion
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Does the .357 SIG need to exist?

If .40 S&Ws can push a 135gr bullet to 1420 fps, PLUS a 165 gr @ 1240fps, plus a 180gr @ 1150fps, all the way up to a 200 gr @ 1100fps, why does anyone need the .357 sig?

The 125 grain .357 SIG is a smaller bullet and it only has 100fps higher velocity than the larger 135 gr .40S&W. If you up the weight of the .357 SIG to 147 grains, it only makes 1296fps, compared to a heavier 165gr .40S&W at 1240.

On top of that, Double Tap loads a 125 grain .40S&W load at 1445fps, lagging behind the .357 SIG round by only 5 fps.

I don't see the need to hang on to the .357 SIG round when it is already scarce on store shelves and is more difficult to reload and re-use brass, being a necked down cartridge.

Someone defend it and prove me wrong
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Old 04-09-2011, 07:58   #2
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Quote:
Does the .357 SIG need to exist?
Ask the Secret Service. That premier American protection agency certainly had (and has) access to many other handgun calibers to choose from when they decided on what was the best all-round choice for the task assigned to their agents.
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Old 04-09-2011, 08:08   #3
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My Glock 23 will only function with 100% reliability with a light attached if I use a Lone Wolf .357 SIG barrel in her. Yes, I have the latest mag followers and, yes, I have the 11 coil springs in my mags. No .357 SIG, no reliable functioning.

So, I guess I need the .357 SIG.

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Old 04-09-2011, 08:31   #4
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I think it is a more accurate round than the 40 I used to have both.

I think it feeds more reliably that 40! I have never had my 31 jam for any reason ever.

my .40 did not like lights as mentioned above so it was out as a house gun.

Even though they are usually marked the same number of rounds you can usually get 16 in a glock .357sig mag saving that extra step of taking the mag out and topping it off with one more round.
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Old 04-09-2011, 16:13   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
Ask the Secret Service. That premier American protection agency certainly had (and has) access to many other handgun calibers to choose from when they decided on what was the best all-round choice for the task assigned to their agents.
How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.

The USBP issued the .357Mag 110JHP (with the 125JHP as an option) to replace the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+ "Treasury" load, then the 115JHP+P+ in 9mm and then the 155JHP in 40S&W, and all of these loads were highly effective on BGs. And BTW, the USBP is involved in more shootings than all the other federal agencies combined.

The Sig cartridge is a limited "nitch" cartridge that can be replaced by all the other semi-auto service calibers. It's really a "neither fish nor fowl" cartridge and it's major downfall for LE use is cost of both training and service ammunition. The 40S&W caliber is much better suited for both LE and civilian SD use because of the various bullet weights/designs available in both training and SD ammunition.
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Old 04-09-2011, 18:06   #6
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You make some good points...

...and some I disagree with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.
True, but the same could be said of any weapon or caliber.

Quote:
The USBP issued the .357Mag 110JHP (with the 125JHP as an option) to replace the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+ "Treasury" load, then the 115JHP+P+ in 9mm and then the 155JHP in 40S&W, and all of these loads were highly effective on BGs.
Of course they were. No one would say these aren't good loads.

Quote:
And BTW, the USBP is involved in more shootings than all the other federal agencies combined.
I think that's true. But a many state agencies around the country have gone to the 357 SIG and I don't know if USBP is involved in more shootings than all those state agencies combined. In North Carolina (the tread starter's home state) every state agency went to it: troopers, game wardens, alcohol agents, and state criminal investigators. The reasons usually heard are barrier penetration and duplication of the venerable .357 Magnum's ballistics with the 125 gr JHP. The old magnum round has been amply represented in police gunfights, especially highway shootings.

Quote:
The Sig cartridge is a limited "nitch" cartridge that can be replaced by all the other semi-auto service calibers.
I don't accept that as fact. See argument about duplicating the .357 125 JHP.

Quote:
It's really a "neither fish nor fowl" cartridge and it's major downfall for LE use is cost of both training and service ammunition.
Point taken with ammo costs (at least for now) but I don't buy the training part. In my experience, my G33 has less muzzle flip than my partner's G27. Both are "snappy" but the .40 snaps up and the 357 snaps back. I can make a faster follow-up shot with my G33.

Quote:
The 40S&W caliber is much better suited for both LE and civilian SD use because of the various bullet weights/designs available in both training and SD ammunition.
Civilain SD? Maybe. LE? I don't think so. At least not where barriers are likely to be a concern. The versatility argument has it's points in civilian SD but not LE given that most agencies will mandate a certain duty round.

Last edited by Wyocop; 04-10-2011 at 15:01..
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Old 04-10-2011, 22:07   #7
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cant we all just get along, look... big freaking deal, some of us like the .357sig, and some of you don't.... . I for one do like the .357sig i have used it on duty as a cop and i have also used a .40.... just like we can argue the difference between a 12 gauge, 16 gauge or 20 gauge shot gun... it all comes down to one thing. What do YOU need a gun for, what is YOUR purpose for shooting and what do YOU like. because if your a target shooter that only puts holes in paper, maybe you want a light .40, if your a competition shooter maybe you want a light 9, if your a cop maybe you need 180 grain .40 or maybe you want the distance you can reach with a .357sig without the bullet drop.... everyone is different and we all have different reasons for shooting. buy what you need and stop trying to convince us we need what you have.....
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Old 04-10-2011, 23:57   #8
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Originally Posted by glockfan5171 View Post
cant we all just get along, look... big freaking deal, some of us like the .357sig, and some of you don't.... . I for one do like the .357sig i have used it on duty as a cop and i have also used a .40.... just like we can argue the difference between a 12 gauge, 16 gauge or 20 gauge shot gun... it all comes down to one thing. What do YOU need a gun for, what is YOUR purpose for shooting and what do YOU like. because if your a target shooter that only puts holes in paper, maybe you want a light .40, if your a competition shooter maybe you want a light 9, if your a cop maybe you need 180 grain .40 or maybe you want the distance you can reach with a .357sig without the bullet drop.... everyone is different and we all have different reasons for shooting. buy what you need and stop trying to convince us we need what you have.....
When I just "want" to put holes in paper and plink around for no other reason than to plink, it's 22LR and/or 22MAG. Not something as expensive as 40 S&W.

Though, don't misunderstand, I do see your overall point. I was "just saying".

Oh yeah, you said; "if your a competition shooter maybe you want a light 9". I knew there had to be a reason people shoot 9, but could never put my finger on it. Thanks!
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Old 04-09-2011, 20:53   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.

The USBP issued the .357Mag 110JHP (with the 125JHP as an option) to replace the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+ "Treasury" load, then the 115JHP+P+ in 9mm and then the 155JHP in 40S&W, and all of these loads were highly effective on BGs. And BTW, the USBP is involved in more shootings than all the other federal agencies combined.

The Sig cartridge is a limited "nitch" cartridge that can be replaced by all the other semi-auto service calibers. It's really a "neither fish nor fowl" cartridge and it's major downfall for LE use is cost of both training and service ammunition. The 40S&W caliber is much better suited for both LE and civilian SD use because of the various bullet weights/designs available in both training and SD ammunition.
Regarding the USSS not being in many shootings, I can't say it's their fault that no one has tried to act a fool in a way to warrant getting shot at much less hit with the round. Maybe when some crazy shiz happens to/around the President or some airplane then we can start a thread about how much the .357sig is worth and how that round saved this great nation of ours.

/take that .45acp!!
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Old 04-13-2011, 16:55   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
How many shootings has the Treasury Dept (including the USSS) been involved in recently? Just because an agency adopts the .357Sig that doesn't mean that it's the most effective caliber/load available.
Yeah, I'm sure the Secret Service picked the .357sig willy nilly without extensive testing. Give me a break.
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Old 04-13-2011, 17:37   #11
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I have a 9mm, 40s&w, and a 45acp along with my 357sig. My gun club has steel plates at their pistol range and I am able to shoot out all my ammo I bring with every gun except the 357sig.

The plates can take as much ammo I send down range with every gun. When I shoot them with the 357sig the welds break on the backs of the plates after a few rounds. That tells me the 357sig is hitting the plates with a lot more force than any of the other calibers.




Thats a fact the 357sig hits harder!!!!!
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Old 04-13-2011, 17:57   #12
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Originally Posted by GMK View Post
I have a 9mm, 40s&w, and a 45acp along with my 357sig. My gun club has steel plates at their pistol range and I am able to shoot out all my ammo I bring with every gun except the 357sig.

The plates can take as much ammo I send down range with every gun. When I shoot them with the 357sig the welds break on the backs of the plates after a few rounds. That tells me the 357sig is hitting the plates with a lot more force than any of the other calibers.




Thats a fact the 357sig hits harder!!!!!
Oh yeah, well I can't take my .40 S&W to my gun range because people are afraid that it will blow them up.






The 357 SIG may hit ONE person harder, but my .40 kills EVERYBODY within a 100ft radius!!!!
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Old 04-09-2011, 08:34   #13
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Yes!!!
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Old 04-09-2011, 08:34   #14
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Old 04-09-2011, 09:30   #15
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If the .357 SIG had hit the market at the time LE agencies were getting dissatisfied with the 9mm, there would almost certainly never have been a .40 S&W. The .357 SIG is a excellent round. Its greatest problem is the lack of readily available cheap practice ammo as well as being chambered in a limited number of pistols. For many shooters, the fact that it is a bottleneck round makes it much less attractive for reloading as it precludes use of carbide dies. It is very limited in available and usable bullet weights. If it could handle a heavier bullet, it would be better. The .40 S&W does offer advantages for those who want a larger bore using heavier bullets. With lighter weight bullets, the .40 offers lots of velocity and on target energy. Yesterday I was in Wal-Mart. They had lots of .38 Special, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. They had one box of .357 Sig. ammo... WWB at $29/50 rds. By contrast, WWB .45ACP is $35.97/100 rds and .40 S&W 180gr. FMJ are $29/100 rds. For the normal shooter who does not go through a wheelbarrow load of ammo every month, who tends to go to places like Wal-Mart and buy a box of ammo to shoot, the prices cited are a big reason why the .357 SIG is not making much progress in the market place. It is likely going to wind up like the .280 Remington... fine round but now largely only used by those who just like something "different." Everyone else just buys a .270 Winchester. JMHO.
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Old 04-09-2011, 12:36   #16
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If the .357 SIG had hit the market at the time LE agencies were getting dissatisfied with the 9mm, there would almost certainly never have been a .40 S&W. The .357 SIG is a excellent round.
+1
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Old 04-09-2011, 09:36   #17
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If .40 S&Ws can push a 135gr bullet to 1420 fps, PLUS a 165 gr @ 1240fps, plus a 180gr @ 1150fps, all the way up to a 200 gr @ 1100fps, why does anyone need the .357 sig?

The 125 grain .357 SIG is a smaller bullet and it only has 100fps higher velocity than the larger 135 gr .40S&W. If you up the weight of the .357 SIG to 147 grains, it only makes 1296fps, compared to a heavier 165gr .40S&W at 1240.

On top of that, Double Tap loads a 125 grain .40S&W load at 1445fps, lagging behind the .357 SIG round by only 5 fps.

I don't see the need to hang on to the .357 SIG round when it is already scarce on store shelves and is more difficult to reload and re-use brass, being a necked down cartridge.

Someone defend it and prove me wrong
Most newbs into shooting & ballistics miss the sectional density part of any caliber. The SD of the 135gr/40 is the same as the SD of a 105gr/357. So if both bullets have the same construction, both penetrate the same. You can drive a 105gr 357sig to 1600fps, so make both a monometal HP & the 357sig wins the penetration & tissue destruction do to the higher vel.
BTW, the 357sig can handle heavier bullets. I can drive the 135grSGDB to almost 1300fps. That is slightly better than a 165gr/40 & going about 100fps faster. It's a shame that Speer doesnt' play w/ this though, it would be a good one, but better than the 125gr @ 1350fps+, probably not. You would get more penetration out of it, but it's already got a good rep for that.
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:57   #18
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The Gen 4 GLOCKS seem to have fixed the light mounting problems with their stiffer recoil spring, so that will not be a problem in the future.

I like the technical info on sectional density Fred, but there is no such thing as a 105gr .357 sig doing 1600fps in the real world for us to purchase as far as I know.

The ft/lbs are not that far apart even given the seemingly wide difference in number you give for velocity according to sectional density.

125gr .357 = 584 ft/lbs
135gr .40 = 567 ft/lbs
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:18   #19
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Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
The Gen 4 GLOCKS seem to have fixed the light mounting problems with their stiffer recoil spring, so that will not be a problem in the future.

I like the technical info on sectional density Fred, but there is no such thing as a 105gr .357 sig doing 1600fps in the real world for us to purchase as far as I know.

The ft/lbs are not that far apart even given the seemingly wide difference in number you give for velocity according to sectional density.

125gr .357 = 584 ft/lbs
135gr .40 = 567 ft/lbs
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy (ftlbs.) Muzzle Velocity (fps)
357 SIG TFSP 60 774 2410

Www.rbcd.net

sells it I am going to order an try it

To be fair they sell some hot .40 as well
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Old 04-09-2011, 11:45   #20
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A 20th Century analogy:

Does the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP need to exist? Or is it a solution seeking a problem; an answer to a question that no one asked? After all, it's just a faster .38 Special anyway. And we already have other rounds in 9mm/.38, plus .44s and .45s in various weights and loadings. Isn't that enough?

That's what the anti-357 SIG arguments sound like to me.

If the most commonly encountered anti-357 SIG arguments are true then is it fair to say the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP goes down in history as a solution to a non-problem?

Few cops in the 20th Century believed that.

Now, does the .40 S&W need to exist? I don't see.....

Last edited by Wyocop; 04-09-2011 at 12:39..
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