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Old 04-05-2005, 19:45   #138
philkryder
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Quote:
Originally posted by cw2go
First, I was the poster, so I know exactly what the writeup says, and what all the evidence looks like, since I still have it.


It is possible that there was some overpressure (impossible to say for sure), but that was not likely to cause the kB! --
it was most likely a slight out-of-battery condition.



This is not a "simple case failure". The case is not designed to contain

that

level of pressure without support.




It is a combination of several elements, the most critical are the ability to fire slightly out-of-battery (i.e.- short of full lockup) combined with a partially unsupported chamber. If the pressure was high, then that may also have been a contributing factor. If I were to rewrite the linked post about the G19 kB! (since I was the orignal author), I would more clearly characterize it as a slightly out-of-battery discharge, as this is where the evidence points. It is important that owners of the earlier models understand there is an upgrade kit to avoid this condition. If you have an early model (as listed in the link), get the upgrade!!

As for the attempt of several apologists to redefine kB! as *only* an event that completely blows up the firearm is particularly inappropriate. That is NOT the definition of kB! Attempting to redefine away is an inappropriate way to address the problem, especially when it is avoidable. That's like having a doctor who tells you it isn't cancer unless it kills you, so don't worry about it. The term kB! was coined by Dean Speir, and he calls this a kB!, so I will stick with his definition, not that of some revisionist.

For those worried about the problem, read the linked acticle (above) about the upgrade kit and find out if your model needs it. Glock should have called it a recall and gotten the word out, but they didn't. Even without the upgrade, you will be okay if you avoid reloads, lead, plated slugs, and Federal cases (unless you really know what you are doing, or like taking chances). Do this and you will not have a problem. This sure beats wringing your hands and wondering if you are okay.

If you do experience a kB!, please share the detailed info so we are all kept informed, and make sure you report it to Glock and the ammo manufacturer, and one of them will take care of the parts and repairs.

-- cw
Sorry for misinterpreting what you had written -


Here is the part of your URL post that made me term it a simple case failure - I note that you use the term "classic" rather than "simple" - my apologies.
....
Examination of the Glock and case show it to be a classic case failure kB!


Here is the part that made me suspect the ammo.
....
This commercial "reload" from a local firm was one of only 17 or so reloaded rounds ever fired through this pistol and examination of the primer showed a greater-than-expected flattening effect and engraving of primer metal, with a slight extrusion into the primer pin recess....


Regarding whether the cause was out of battery or overpressure:

We know that there were signs of overpressure per your post.

We also know that other rounds in this batch showed over pressure - again per your post.

We also know that Glocks do not fully support the case - per your references and many others.

We also know from your photos that the case failure occured ONLY in the unsupported area and not all the way around the case.

What I don't know is why you go from the above data to your opinion that
"...it was most likely a slight out-of-battery condition."


I will restate my reasons for disbelief in
"out of battery experiences" -
1) Though the trigger on a glock CAN activate the striker when the barrel is pushed slightly down and back, THE BREECH IS STILL TIGHT against the barrel and bullet.
2) all high speed photos of pistol bullets, that I have seen exiting a barrel have thus far always shown the bullet exiting the barrel BEFORE the slide-barrel begins to move relative to the frame. Any contrary photo would be very welcome.


Regarding whether to use Dean Speir's definition of KB rather than Walter's

I appreciate the argument that since Dean coined the term, it should mean exactly what he meant it to mean (sort of like the Cheshire cat in Alice)...

But, I also appreciate that language evolves, and I think that Walter was attempting to draw a clarifing distinction between different types of failures.
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