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Old 10-31-2013, 13:57   #22
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: On the road to Shambala
Posts: 2,234
Originally Posted by aippi View Post
Correct evaluation, however, these are not the people that work on these weapons. They are end users and are seldom inside these clones where the differences are real. SAAMI standard rule in the USA and you are assuming they are followed in the countries building these clones. Manufacturing processes are strickly followed in the US as these companies live in fear of litigation for fautly products. In the clone world their are "cut offs" protecting the foreign manufacturers. It would be nice iF an attorny who has knowledge of this would post in and validate that point. If you have a clone you are buying a product that looks like, performs like or somewhat like the real thing. You are not getting the same quality in a product that will last like the original.

Years ago the Ithica 37 was used as one of the first clones from Chong dong or something another Machine works in China. I picked on up for a cheap weapon to leave at a Cabin. Man that thing worked great, almost as smooth as a 37. 20" smoth bore with rifle sights. Decide to keep it to play with and many hundreds of rounds when through it by me and by friends. Could not belive how great it shot rifled slugs. One guy shot it and swore the barrel was rifled until he walked back up to the bench and looked and saw it was a smooth bore. In the Winter I do complete stripping of all my guns (nothing else to do up here in the winter) and once inside that clone I realized the differences and the poor workmanship. Yes, it worked and it shot fine. It was not the quality of the Ithica 37 in any way.

If you want to buy a clone and tell yourself it is the real thing then that works for you. However, to state that to others is misleading and does not do the issue justice. It would be better to say that for the money they can be a good value depending on the intent of the use, the volume of use and what you are expecting from a firearm. That would be the fair thing to say about them.

And yes, to copy anything is easy. Also, to manufacturer the item with same quality can be done, however, they do not and they do not have to.
I'm a bit confused by what you are saying here. I have an H&R Pardner Pump in 12 gauge. It has(at least has so far) performed just as well as my 870 Marine Magnum(or my 590A1 or Ithaca 37 or whatever else). That being said, isn't the "proof in the pudding" as they say? I'll grant the finish isn't as nice as my 870 or Ithaca, and there are visible machine/tooling marks on some parts that aren't visible on the 870 or Ithaca, but from a functional standpoint, it is the equivalent(at least so far). Is this NOT the typical experience that you are aware of?

As for US manufacturers adhering to SAAMI standards, that's a good thing. However you don't think that companies that import and market these firearms under their name ensure that they meet minimum safety standards on a regular basis? If these guns were prone to catastrophic failure, I can't imagine a US importer wanting to be involved with them. Once again, I'm not asking about fit/finish, although I have seen some shoddy 870 Express guns, I'm asking about basic metallurgy and manufacturing processes.

Added on edit: I don't know anything about metallurgy, literally, that's why I'm asking if perhaps you have some insight into the actual material these guns are being made with is substandard somehow. My only real reference as to that being a possibility is the Norinco copy of the M14 from back in the 90s(?). I seem to remember reading that while they were milled forgings(not cast) and well machined, the actual steel was a bit too soft which could(?) cause problems over the long haul. I freely admit that comparing the pressures of a 7.62mm rifle to a 12 gauge is a stretch, but that's why I'm curious.

I do agree that if you buy a "clone," like the Steven 350 copy of the Ithaca 37, to say it IS an Ithaca 37 is a lie.

I know you are very experienced with shotguns and your informed posts are always appreciated, I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to say. Bear in mind, I can be a bit slow on the uptake at times.......
The hog of the forsaken,

He is the pork of crime

- Michael Hurley

Last edited by Kilrain; 10-31-2013 at 19:20..
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