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Old 07-24-2012, 15:34   #38
CanyonMan
In The Saddle
 
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,906
Well here is an update.....



Besides just flat havin to much going on, I have just got "out of the mood" for all my load trial/error stuff for 10mm, "since" I already have loads with BD and AA#9 that really smoke down range and hit hard, and especially with the BD and HC bulllets out of my G20sf..

My Hornady book vol 6/7 just won't allow for enough LS powder to give vels much better than a 40 S&W. Going 1/2/3/grs over book max to achieve what I can safely do with the BD and AA9, I believe is just not a wise idea. Not with the XTP.

Hodgdon allows for 8.2grs LS max with a 200gr SIERRA, not XTP.

Hodgdon allows for 9.5grs LS max with a 180gr SIERRA not an XTP.

Hornady allows for only 8.2grs LS Max for a 180gr XTP Not SIERRA, and allows only 7.3grs of LS Max for the 200gr XTP, not SIERRA.

Since the Sierra and the XTP are differentin shank and ogive, I am confident this is why the difference in load data between Hodgdon and Hornady.

Pushing the 180 XTP to 9.4/9.5grs LS, and the 200gr Xtp 9.2grs LS 'and beyond', is way past 'Hornaday' max, to much so imo, to just end up with what BD and AA#9 can give me more safely so.

I have 'no doubt at this point', after spending half the night last night checking rechecking, and cross refferencing, and looking once again at my fired brass from all the "FUN" I had Saturday... hahaha. That LS is not to be pushed this far from Hornady Max unsing a Hornady bullet.

I learned long ago 'mixing components' is not a real good practice 'at times'. With "some things" yes, we can 'sometimes' get away with it, but it is better to stick with the components listed in the book "especially when," we do decide to venture 'over max' for those particular loads and book data lsted...

Re-read that last sentence amigo's.


Now I am 'no where near' the weany stage and been doing stuff with loads and guns that will make a bull rider out here yell calf rope ! haha.

But, there are just "some components" that must be used as listed in the book for that bullet.


So, if I do that and stay with "Hornady listed data" for the XTP with LS powder in the 10mm, I will end up with not much more than a glorified 40S&W.

I have NO doubt that these loads I ran the other day in the G29 are what caused such excessive pressure that they cracked open and split a new WW case, and just flat buldged out the rest even in that KKM barrel, which yes, Is a rather lemon-ish barrel I 'happened to get', but I have shot about every type gun you can imagine since I started at 10 years old, and married into a family that had a High 'class' firearms license, so I got to shoot a good many pretty cool things in all those years before his death. (former father in law).

Saying, I could tell with out question by feel and report, that those LS loadings were just to hot for that weapon, no matter the barrel. Going to a AM barrel is not a reason to to go further past the limits, it helps yes, but is not the reaaon to crank up the powder load, as I know y'all know already, but some newbies may not know this.

Now, I know several of you have used these LS loads mentioned above with the Xtp's mentioned above, with great results, and no problems, and that is great, and I believe you, and trust the wisdom of those who have done this, but I do suggest we all stand back a tad an give 'thought' to this. Some times luck does not always hold out...


I have been a wildcatter from oil field, horses, to hand gun loads for 4 & 5 decades, and with many risky things in ranch life and business, and do shoot some over max loads in several revolvers and even in the 10mm G20, BUT, in doing so, we got to watch HOW we're mixing and matching bullets/case's/powders/primers.

One of my very dear friends is Mic McPherson. Google him up. He gives lectures all over the world on ballistics, and has a loading manual that I think is one of the best out there.. "Metallaic Cartridge Reloading"

We have spent many phone calls together over a good deal of years, and in all the stuff I mention to him I do, the biggest thing he jumps on me about is "mixing components", mostly bullets from one load book to another.. E.G, using Hornady bullets with SIERRA, etc load data. Vice versa.

Guys, again, I am NOT rebuking, or pointing fingers, or being smart, or any such nonsense ! I am however saying that the LS powder is not a good choice in these way over max loads (according to Hornady load data for their XTP with LS). "because", again, in staying with the Hornady data for 180/200gr Xtp's, it is nothing more than a tad over 40S&W loadings in velocity. You got to get pretty well 'over Hornady max' to make this powder move that bullet the same AA9 or BD can do 'at book data'.


Again guys, man, I do some pretty cutting edge things, I really do and 'never been afraid to'. But For me, the LS and XTP's should stay as Hornady suggest in their load book, after what I experienced with it the other day... I realize there are tons of "weany loads" in most of our manuals, "Especially in the Lyman books."

Talk about liberal load data .. man ! But there is a reason that even in Lee 2nd edition reloading, they specifically say...

" 200gr JHP's" .. this powder this grs, this powder this grs etc, BUT, All of a sudden, they still say "200gr" but it will say right after it XTP!!!

Because of shank of bullet/design/ogive, etc, they know that "this bullet" (in this true example) is NOT to be used under their 200gr JHP loadings "except" where noted XTP.

Same with speer, and Lyman, and other. The bullet is listed for that particular charge weight... YES, I know I know, we can some times, and I some times, go ahead anyway, and even 'push the max'. But in ALL humility, no matter how long ya got away with it, it's only ok, if you've really researched it and "THEN", frankly, 'Know that ya know, that ya know, what your doing." Then procede.


If this sounds weany/ picking/ scolding... Then the reader has MISSED the point here.... Or I have failed to communicate this properly.

I did not write this to argue, or point fingers, cause if I point one finger at you, I got three pointing back at me... haha


I'm just saying that after I a good deal of looking at all this, and loading up some stuff late last night, and looking at some numbers on paper at least. I can see no velocity benifit in LS over the other loadings for the 180gr/200gr XTP. And as I said, staying with Hornady book loads for LS and their XTP, will give poor velocity numbers not much over a 40S&W.


Well. That is what I see, and got to stand there, so hopefully this will be a suggestion that deserves a hearing... ha

Never come to the place in loading that we won't at least listen or research a little more.


So, Final note. The LNIB G29 is for sale if anyone is interested. I have a G20, and it serves my purpose, but have no use for a G29.

Going to stay with my 40 some year carry "in town" of M1911 45acp. This caliber and platform has always served me well, and never let me down, so I will continue on with it in a couple different platforms, but in 45acp.


I got the G29 for a "new trial/error" gun for 'in town human SD..' It would be, and is a good round for that as you all know, man no argument there from me... I just am old and set in my ways and like my 45's haha

The G20 makes for a good saddle bag gun on horse back in the way out back here, loaded down with a hand full of high caps for the poop hit the fan south of the border runners, if God forbid it was needed, but my EDC ranch carry is a 45LC or 44mag six shot and although I can knock a nat out of his saddle at a looong way with my hog legs, I do favor having higher cap fire power in the ready if called for.

Thus the G20 rides along. 10mm ? Excellent caliber and SD weapon, and a ok deer gun. But the G29 is up for grabs if someone wants it. Yes it has had maybe 300yds through it I guess. But looks and shoots perfect with the OEM barrel. Internals have been lightly polished by me, and as I said it shoots great.

I just got no need for it.

As for the G20. It will and has served well with the high dose's of BD, and max loads of AA#9 for me, so I'll stay there.

I hope everyone takes this in the spirt given, as most forums are not much more than key board battle grounds.


Some times in life we learn, some times we need to teach. So, I'll throw this out like a hay bale over the fence, and folks can eat or walk away...

Man, in over 40 odd years of loading and shooting all the time... I am still learnng ! haha..........



Well amigo's. Gun for sale. I am satisfied with the G20 and my long time loads. It is a keeper. The KKM goes back for a refund, and the LS, well, it will be a shelf queen, unless I can find use for it some where, but I would not no where at present. All calibers and guns I own already got their "menu"
lined out for them ! haha.

This weapon (G29) 'will knock out' the 10 ring with the stock barrel even in semi rapid fire and at 35yds or so.

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Be safe Mi Amigo's !!











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Last edited by CanyonMan; 07-24-2012 at 16:53..
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