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Old 02-21-2010, 16:34   #533
long shot
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Join Date: Apr 2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock20c10mm View Post
Right, as long as a given bullets end result meets IWBA/FBI testing protocol he'll tell you it's a good bullet in whatever load it was launched from. Nothing wrong with that in my mind.

My problem is that Dr. Roberts claims all of Dr. Courtney's work reguarding enough peak BPW and it's effects toward incapactation some percentage of the time is complete BS, yet will never gives reasoning why. Not ever. He simply states he and a number of collegues looked over Dr. Courtney's studies and found it to be full of holes. Yet he won't point to a single supposed hole, and he has been asked directly a number of times when he choose to get involved in threads reguarding Dr. Courtney's theory of BPW. He has also made mention in threads on GT when asked direct questions that he ignored that he isn't interested in wasting time with anyone he didn't ask a direct question to.

And of course it was Dr. Martin Fackler who was the deciding factor behind much of the IWBA's work in terms of what ended up being termed FBI protocol. Dr. Roberts simply rode on Dr. Facklers coat tails. Not to mention Dr. Fackler has had some pretty negative comments toward Dr. Roberts which may or may not be beside the point.

So again, no doubt Dr. Roberts is an intelligent man, but it doesn't mean he isn't closed minded toward new theories like Dr. Courtney's with plenty of research behind it to back it up. Therefore, IMO, Dr. Roberts leaves some to be desired. Duncan McPhearson, it seems to me, actually did more different supporting work to Dr. Facklers than Dr. Roberts could have ever dreamed of doing.

And yeah, Dr. Roberts may have been contracted to test for some of the nations largest LE agencies as well as various military operations, but so what? Anyone could have done it that had the resources. All he had to do was test it going by the FBI protocol that already existed.

Now a days you can simply call up the likes of ATK among others who have the resources to do the testing (now mobile) and they'll bring it to wherever you want to test your ammo including any ammo you want to test against their Speer and Federal brands.

At the end of the day I don't see Dr. Roberts being as helpful as many are lead to believe. He wouldn't have had to exist for us to know the vast majority we do, and he chooses to be closed minded to Dr. Courtney's work which has zero supporting evidence against it. Therefore I don't hold him in the high reguard so many others do, then again, most others don't know what I know.

That has little to do with Dr. Roberts directly.


Good Shooting,
Craig


PS - This was simply my opinion based on a certain amount of fact. Please don't take it negatively toward yourself as I have nothing against you. Just throwing my thoughts out there.
Craig, no harm done.

Only Dr. Roberts can answer why he considers the work of Dr. Courtney to be complete 'BS' as you stated. Personally, I would look at it this way: if my load already performed to protocol AND I could also potentially obtain another wounding mechanism via BPW, so much the better. While I may not switch to say a faster load (if necessary) soley to potentially achieve BPW ... I would have no problem at all if a certain load I was comfortable with and carried, afforded me the potential to achieve it.

Fackler and Roberts served in the military together. Both worked for years together at the Letterman Army Institute. IIRC, it was at LAI that Fackler was credited with developing the current 10% ballistic gelatin mix.

Fackler, Roberts, and Duncan MacPherson, all served on the IWBA board of directors ... with Fackler serving as President.

I'm well aware that companies like ATK do mobile ballistics testing ... and also have results posted on their sites. I was merely pointing out that some agencies/military operations still chose Dr. Roberts to perform the testing and sought his recommendations. In other words, while ammunition manufacturers are more than capable of conducting their own testing while meeting the protocol ... some folks still chose to utilize Dr. Roberts. IIRC, SOCOM enlisted Dr. Roberts help to both develope and test the 6.8mm rifle round.

In any event, the jest of my posts was that the IWBA/FBI protocol has indeed been one of the primary driving forces behind today's best ammunition.
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