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-   -   Do You Feel "Undergunned" carrying the Snubbie? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=816506)

badge4436 01-25-2008 23:14

Do You Feel "Undergunned" carrying the Snubbie?
 
I have heard people say the snubbie is very convenient to carry but they felt undergunned while relying on it alone. When you consider your lifestyle-- where you go in your personal and business affairs, is this really an issue?

I make a point of staying out of situations and places I know have a credible and probable likelihood of a confrontation with criminals. Just about all of us have an area in town you want to stay out of. Having carried a gun both in patrol and as a detective for 30 years I don't feel undergunned with the J-Frame. I would have had to be deaf and blind not to get a "street sense" in all that time. I wasn't sitting behind a desk. The snubbie suits me just fine now that I am retired. I practice often with it and am fast and accurate with it. Fast in shooting and in reloading. Nothing unique there, just a matter of practice.

How many of you feel comfortable with just the snubbie when you go out and how many of you feel undergunned?

G33 01-26-2008 01:37

Feel fine with snub.
:supergrin:

mitchshrader 01-26-2008 01:50

uhm. yes. i cheat. pachmayer boot grips and a 3" barrel and heavy loads, +P 158s.

i'd rather have a 4" pencil barrel round butt model 10 with the same loads, and will when i find it. :)

RemSp10 01-26-2008 02:03

undergunned heck no.:supergrin:
my snubby works great for me.
but still like to carry my colt .45 and 19 at times.

Goldendog Redux 01-26-2008 02:06

I never feel undergunned with my 642. Granted I usually have a 1911 with me as well.:supergrin:

Really though, just tooling around town I do not feel undergunned with my Smiff, I can shoot it well and I figure five rounds of .38+P stuck in a bad guy should go a long way in stopping th bad guy from doing what he is doing.

MF

ok47s 01-26-2008 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by badge4436 (Post 9737315)
I have heard people say the snubbie is very convenient to carry but they felt undergunned while relying on it alone. When you consider your lifestyle-- where you go in your personal and business affairs, is this really an issue?

I make a point of staying out of situations and places I know have a credible and probable likelihood of a confrontation with criminals. Just about all of us have an area in town you want to stay out of. Having carried a gun both in patrol and as a detective for 30 years I don't feel undergunned with the J-Frame. I would have had to be deaf and blind not to get a "street sense" in all that time. I wasn't sitting behind a desk. The snubbie suits me just fine now that I am retired. I practice often with it and am fast and accurate with it. Fast in shooting and in reloading. Nothing unique there, just a matter of practice.

How many of you feel comfortable with just the snubbie when you go out and how many of you feel undergunned?

My comfort zone with the snub as a primary weapon for ccw continues to decrease as the number of armed attacks involving multiple criminals increase.My snub now serves as a pocket carry back-up.

Gunboat1 01-26-2008 06:32

Yes. A snub is really not enough, because 5 rounds is all you are likely to be able to use. Ever try to reload a snub under extreme stress? It ain't likely to happen.

Mine is used only when I can't carry a Glock that is more effective (and ANY Glock is). Whenever those occasions occur, I do feel undergunned.

Criminals run in packs these days. Misses happen. And one round rarely solves the problem with a determined bad guy. Somewhere in that arithmetic, you drop the hammer on an empty chamber, and that ain't a good thing.

h2o-5o 01-26-2008 07:34

IMO, a realistic analysis of a SD situation leaves me comfortable with a J-frame. To use deadly force against someone, you must be able to articulate why you felt your life was in immediate danger. Quite frankly, if three or more assailants are using weapons against me, I really don't think I could draw a $2000 custom 1911 from concealment and stop them, at least not before at least one would be able to pull the trigger.

On the other hand, if proper tactics and cover are utilized, in all likelihood the rest will turn tail and run, after I fire the first shot into one of them.

I am firmly convinced that a large percentage of folks who tout the "latest and greatest" autoloader, are envisioning themselves being Todd Jarrett or Rob Leatham at an IPSC event.

Gunboat1 01-26-2008 07:46

Many, many average men have won fights against superior numbers - if their weapon was capable of it. You can't use capability you aren't carrying. The fight in the dog is more important than the dog in the fight - but if your weapon runs dry, you are pretty much done.

"I probably won't need more firepower" sucks as an epitaph.

Glockanatorrrrr 01-26-2008 07:52

Let me shoot you with it. Tell me what you think. :tongueout: I have heard this before but for me it's a carry gun while at work and a BUG when off. I carry a speed loader and a speed strip so 15 shots. I have a 340pd so 5 of .38+p or .357 I feel fine with this gun.

To each there own though. I used to pocket carry a P3at and felt undergunned so I swithed to the 340pd.

MCPreacher 01-26-2008 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunboat1 (Post 9738537)
The fight in the dog is more important than the dog in the fight

While a very amusing saying, it doesn't really fit the situation.

When pitting a rottweiler against a chihuahua, the willingness to fight doesn't do the chihuahua a lot of good.... :tongueout:

Berto 01-26-2008 10:18

I'd imagine any gun won't feel like enough when a gunfight happens.
As it's been, I didn't need to shoot and the snubby sufficied.
The idea that 3-4 guys are going to stand around stoically while you empty your gun into one of them is also a bit of a sretch, be it a snubby or Mac 10.
I carry what I can, usually it's a five shooter.

stmcelroy 01-26-2008 12:47

The majority of the time I feel well armed with my little 340PD, for the times I don't I still have my Glock 19.

G27Chief 01-26-2008 15:09

J frame comfort level
 
In as much as I regulate mine to the defense of myself and others, and not for use as a SWAT entry gun I feel well armed. I have to admit it is rarely the only gun I have on, however when it is I feel well armed for the situations I have been in. I have to generalize, becuase I carry one of the many j frame .38's I own.

DeadMansLife 01-26-2008 16:14

Yes, I do feel under gunned with my SP101. I only carry a snub if I cannot carry something bigger. Also. part of my plan is to use the snub to get so my G31 of Mossy either in the car or house.

rob700 01-26-2008 17:52

Currently torn between a Glock 23 and a S+W airweights to compliment my Glock 27. Can't come to grips with 5 shots vs multiple mags.

The snub would be ideal as a day to day CCW.

At night the G27 and a S+W pocket rocket would seem ideal for some of my nightime photography excursions which attract the enevitable homeless vampire or werewolf. They worry me less than the organized thugs.

I figure a little shock and awe to give me enough time to draw the Glock.

My Taurus 85 is totally unreliable... so thus my dilemma.

G27Chief 01-26-2008 18:26

OK class tell me at what distance and how many rounds are fired on average in a defensive gunfight?

RemSp10 01-26-2008 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by h2o-5o (Post 9738471)
IMO, a realistic analysis of a SD situation leaves me comfortable with a J-frame. To use deadly force against someone, you must be able to articulate why you felt your life was in immediate danger. Quite frankly, if three or more assailants are using weapons against me, I really don't think I could draw a $2000 custom 1911 from concealment and stop them, at least not before at least one would be able to pull the trigger.

On the other hand, if proper tactics and cover are utilized, in all likelihood the rest will turn tail and run, after I fire the first shot into one of them.

I am firmly convinced that a large percentage of folks who tout the "latest and greatest" autoloader, are envisioning themselves being Todd Jarrett or Rob Leatham at an IPSC event.

I must say that this post better describes any of them so far.
And yes most of the other posts have some valid points but this one seems to me the most logical. Most "gun fights" wont last past a few rounds or so i don't think. (IMHO only )
One poster mentioned useing their .38 until they can get to their auto that is in the car or house,by that time it is either too late or the BG is gone.
just my nickels worth for what its worth.:supergrin:

Gunboat1 01-26-2008 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCPreacher (Post 9739121)
While a very amusing saying, it doesn't really fit the situation.

When pitting a rottweiler against a chihuahua, the willingness to fight doesn't do the chihuahua a lot of good.... :tongueout:

My point exactly. The will to fight is the most important variable - but even with it, if your equipment isn't sufficient to the task, you will come up short. A 5-shot snub might be enough for an "average" gunfight. But what if your assailant(s) are above average criminals?

5 ain't enough.

I say again: "I probably won't need more firepower" sucks as an epitaph.

RemSp10 01-26-2008 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunboat1 (Post 9742269)
My point exactly. The will to fight is the most important variable - but even with it, if your equipment isn't sufficient to the task, you will come up short. A 5-shot snub might be enough for an "average" gunfight. But what if your assailant(s) are above average criminals?
5 ain't enough.

I say again: "I probably won't need more firepower" sucks as an epitaph.

Average , Above Average. ???????????????.

Any body out there ever been in a "gun fight" with the BG'S. (Maybe a new thread on this question and share your experiance with us. Not looking for any "what if" "or " stuff .just what took place how long it lasted and such.)

Dandapani 01-26-2008 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by G27Chief (Post 9742054)
OK class tell me at what distance and how many rounds are fired on average in a defensive gunfight?

3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

badge4436 01-26-2008 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dandapani (Post 9742353)
3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

That's what FBI studies in the past have said after studying a few years worth of police gunfights.

However since the event of the wonder-nine in police work shots fired must have gone up on the part of the police. I know of several recent events where the young coppers are busting ten or more caps in an event where we had to settle it in six back in "the day." (I think G27Chief might back me up on this.) I made the transition to the semi-auto (Beretta 92F) in my career and never felt that comfortable with it compared to the revolver.

G27Chief 01-26-2008 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by badge4436 (Post 9742949)
That's what FBI studies in the past have said after studying a few years worth of police gunfights.

However since the event of the wonder-nine in police work shots fired must have gone up on the part of the police. I know of several recent events where the young coppers are busting ten or more caps in an event where we had to settle it in six back in "the day." (I think G27Chief might back me up on this.) I made the transition to the semi-auto (Beretta 92F) in my career and never felt that comfortable with it compared to the revolver.

We were trained in a different way. Marksmanship, with an emphasis on speed. The wonder nine, "hollywoodized" gun fight thinking with the spray and pray technique. Some, well hell probally more then we wish to know pick up the weapon once a year on the range. I knew of some before the passage og a POST rule that had not received firearms training since the academy. I go with the shot placement and stopping the threat technique. Get on target quickly, and stay there until the threat is gone.

Giving up my model 686 for the 5903, I would still fire the same practice strings as before 2 then 1. Now a G27, 23 or 22 and I feel fine in the ability to perform my duty.

I will reply REM SP10, One BG 2 rounds of 38+p+ at 23.5' hits in the upper left quadrant of the chest just right of center. BG stopped, still doing time in his wheelchair, paralyzed from the nipples down. That was 21 years ago, dark of night, no weapon mounted flashlight, night sites, 15 round magazines, and a AR 15 was somthing they had down at the National Guard Armory. We made it through, but now the idea of no patrol carbine, or surefires, is almost unimaginable.

Gunboat1 01-27-2008 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dandapani (Post 9742353)
3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

This is exactly the "average" gunfight I was talking about, that is frequently quoted. It is no longer enough for my comfort level.

Read the news once in a while.

whistler52 01-27-2008 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dandapani (Post 9742353)
3 rounds, 3 feet, 3 seconds.

This statistic means that a significant percentage of gunfights require MORE than 3 rounds.

Never been in a gunfight, but I imagine there are several things to worry about. Would be nice not to have to worry about running out of ammo.


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