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-   -   One-Shot Drops Surviving the Myth (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393223)

RMTactical 06-09-2005 15:29

One-Shot Drops Surviving the Myth
 
http://www.rrmemphis.com/myth.pdf

RMTactical 06-09-2005 15:31

What stands out to me is that 10% of these guys were killed with their own weapon... :(

turbonatr 06-09-2005 16:09

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb...leb.htm#page_15


Quote:

In the authors’ ongoing study of violence against law enforcement officers, they have examined several cases where officers used large-caliber hand guns with limited effect displayed by the offenders. In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife. The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender later stated, “The wounds felt like bee stings.”

In another case, officers fired six .40-caliber, hollow-point rounds at a subject who pointed a gun at them. Each of the six rounds hit the individual with no visible effect. The seventh round severed his spinal cord, and the offender fell to the ground, dropping his weapon. This entire firefight was captured by several officers’ in-car video cameras.
Can't say it enough...handguns SUCK at stopping people!

RMTactical 06-09-2005 16:17

Quote:

Originally posted by turbonatr
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb...leb.htm#page_15




Can't say it enough...handguns SUCK at stopping people!

No doubt, that's why you cannot just shoot someone once. You've GOT to shoot until the perp is no longer a threat. One or two shots to the chest MAY not be enough to get the job done and there are too many variables. Some to consider, some that can't be worked into the equation until AFTER.

turbonatr 06-09-2005 16:21

Excellent read, GoreLicks. Thanks!

oldgranpa 06-09-2005 17:04

Really Scary!!
 
And here I was hoping someday to see a "two-shot-stop" rating of different calibers. It's becoming obvious that would be no more effective than a "one-shot-stop" rating, whatever that is.

I guess for us civilians with our little 9mm pocket guns the best rule is still rule 3.....run away if you can!

Changes what I think about my .45 home defense pistol too.

Whatever!

og

turbonatr 06-09-2005 17:17

I really understand that everyone out there wants to make the best possible choice they can about their carry choices, etc., but what it really boils down to is training. Worry more about putting those bullets where they need to be as accurately and as quickly as possible. 9mm, .357, .40, 10mm, .45acp...it's all the same. Pick a premium JHP of sufficient weight, functions 100% in your particular gun and get to the range!!

RMTactical 06-09-2005 18:55

Quote:

Originally posted by turbonatr
I really understand that everyone out there wants to make the best possible choice they can about their carry choices, etc., but what it really boils down to is training. Worry more about putting those bullets where they need to be as accurately and as quickly as possible. 9mm, .357, .40, 10mm, .45acp...it's all the same. Pick a premium JHP of sufficient weight, functions 100% in your particular gun and get to the range!!
Exactly.

Shoot, and shoot often. Secret Service agents qualify everyday when they go into work. Being proficient with your weapon is what will make the difference. Aiming at the COM, not just the whole body as a target.

Rollo Tamasey 06-09-2005 19:38

Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo
 
I know maybe even this would not garentee a stop even if it hit the BG directly but it woulkd be about the biggest cartridge that most people could handle.

After reading your post I can see why that dirty harry guy in the movie always wanted the biggest revolver of his day.

RMTactical 06-09-2005 19:44

Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Rollo Tamasey
I know maybe even this would not garentee a stop even if it hit the BG directly but it woulkd be about the biggest cartridge that most people could handle.

After reading your post I can see why that dirty harry guy in the movie always wanted the biggest revolver of his day.

I think you missed the point. Well placed shots, at a rapid pace with a decent caliber seems like your best bet.

gary newport 06-09-2005 19:57

Re: Re: Maybe they should carry 44 mags with mags safe defender ammo
 
Quote:

Originally posted by GoreLicks
I think you missed the point. Well placed shots, at a rapid pace with a decent caliber seems like your best bet.
You nailed it! ;c

sneakyracer 06-09-2005 21:57

"These offenders did not care about bullet weight or velocity. The majority of the offenders in both studies had been involved in prior shootings before assaulting or killing the officers. Their major concern was being “fast on the trigger” and delivering the bullet to its intended target. One stated, “There’s no time to sight up the gun. If you hesitate, you’re dead.
"

exactly why i think QK and point shooting training is paramount

Tommy Vercetti 06-10-2005 03:12

Thank God "Extreme Shock" has so fortuitously come along with their "explosive fang face anti-terrorist" rounds to help these officers out. Now all they need is a white kydex homemade holster to fit their new single shot .32's. Shame on you for debunking the one shot myth without even considering the fact one can apparently now hunt wild boar with this round. Finally a good large game .32 round. ~`c

vafish 06-11-2005 06:14

Quote:

Originally posted by GoreLicks
Exactly.

... Secret Service agents qualify everyday when they go into work.....

And just where do you get that information from?

It's been a few years since I worked with them, but they did not qualify everyday. IIRC they had quartely qualifications (with the counter assualt team having monthly qualifications with 4 guns, handgun, AR, MP5, and shotgun). Like any federal police agency they had some gun guys that shot a lot but most were not gun guys and only fired at qualification time.

The presidential protective division and counter assualt guys did practice a lot more than most. But they still did not practice daily. They just didn't have a range available to do so, or enough time in the day to drive to the range, qualify, then work a full shift.

vafish 06-11-2005 06:25

Quote:

Originally posted by sneakyracer
"These offenders did not care about bullet weight or velocity. The majority of the offenders in both studies had been involved in prior shootings before assaulting or killing the officers. Their major concern was being “fast on the trigger” and delivering the bullet to its intended target. One stated, “There’s no time to sight up the gun. If you hesitate, you’re dead.
"

exactly why i think QK and point shooting training is paramount

It's also why movement and cover are important.

The problem is that most of us are forced to practice on a square range standing perfectly still in a little shooting booth.

The article does a good job of pointing out the problems with most LE firearms "Training". (I say training in quotes because many departments consider their semi-annual qualification as their firearms training)

RMTactical 06-11-2005 10:18

Quote:

Originally posted by vafish
And just where do you get that information from?

An agent. But he could be wrong, I guess. Or maybe I misunderstood him. It was a while ago since I spoke with him.

ColSanders 06-11-2005 18:42

Great link, thanks!

CougarRed 06-13-2005 07:26

These agents clearly should have been using Federal 115 +p+ 9mm (9PBLE). It's much better than those 45s, percentage-wise.

;a

sneakyracer 06-13-2005 09:13

Quote:

Originally posted by vafish
It's also why movement and cover are important.

The problem is that most of us are forced to practice on a square range standing perfectly still in a little shooting booth.


Yep, and in my range they dont allow rapid fire. So its very hard to practice "quick on the trigger" . While bad guys do whatever they want.

Its all BULL, they should allow rapid fire. At least to competent individuals with competency determined by an instructor. I can deal with being restricted to certain area of the range for example.

I understand the reason not allowing rapid fire, there are a lot of boneheads that go to the range so the range has to factor in for the lowest denominator so to speak.

jng1226 06-13-2005 11:11

Quote:

Originally posted by sneakyracer
Yep, and in my range they dont allow rapid fire.
The range closest to my house is the same way. I drive another 20 minutes out of the way to go to a range that does allow rapid fire just for this reason.

If at all possible, you should find IDPA matches near you and participate as much as possible. If your local matches are run well, you will not only get to practice rapid-fire while drawing from your actual carry rig, you will also be forced to shoot from awkward positions, on the move, etc. - definitely NOT a static/cramped booth/one-direction-of-fire experience. The "stress" of competition and a squad of other shooters watching you will also elevate your training closer (even if just a little bit) to the real thing. Lastly, it is just plain fun!

Jeff


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