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MCNETT 03-08-2004 23:08

9X25 Loading Data
 
Here is where you will post 9X25 loading data.
-Mike

spongeman66 03-09-2004 14:51

All loads below are Winchester formed brass.
CCI-350 primers
COL 1.285" (The longest that would function in my G29 magazines).

Measured velocities are from a 3.8" Barsto Barrel in a Glock 29. Chronograph is at 8 feet, and all are 5-shot averages.

95 grain Remington FMJ (For 380 Auto)
13.3 grains 800X (Primer falls out at 14.2 grains in MY gun, so this is MY max safe load of 94%)
1772 FPS

95 grain Rem FMJ
9.8 Grains Universal Clays (same as above, primer falls out at 10.5)
1677 FPS
3/20/04 Update
9.4 Universal Clays produced the desired MAX .4290 head expansion
9.8 produces more than .4290 Head expansion for some rounds in MY GUN!


95 grain Rem FMJ
20.0 grains H108 (Case FULL. H108 is similar to AA#9 from what I understand)
1656 FPS

95 grain Rem FMJ
21.5 grains H110 (Case Full)
1556 FPS

147 Speer Gold Dot
11.0 grains 800X (From McNett)
1438 FPS
Need to investigate this load. It produces a few rounds with higher than desired head expansion in my gun. 4/5/04

147 Silvertip
15.6 grains H108 (Compressed load Hollowpoint slightly deformed)
1306 FPS

147 XTP
15.6 grains H108 (Compressed load Hollowpoint slightly deformed)
1351 FPS

spongeman66 03-09-2004 16:07

I don't have a Dillon press, so I also don't have the Dillon powder drop and expander system. 9X25 are my first set of Dillon Dies, and they have been a learning experience. I normally use Lee dies, and I guess I just understood all of their quirks and didn't think about them any more...The Dillon dies have their own quirks...

I purchased the Lee .357 Sig Dies so I would have a powder through expander and a (more appropriate for my press) Lee-style bullet seat/crimp die.

I find that the Dillon Sizer die extremely undersizes the neck, and my Lee .357 Sig powder-thru expander didn't have quite a long enough expander to open up all of the neck and allow bullets to seat properly. I kept getting crooked seating, collapsed necks and some wrinkled shoulders. I had to re-run the loaded cartridge through the sizer die to allow the round to chamber. I was getting pretty frustrated when > 50% of my cartridges wouldn't chamber properly!

I found that pre-forming the brass with a .357 Sig die set to the proper 9X25 shoulder REALLY helps! Now, I don't have nearly as many problems with crooked seating or collapsed shoulders! I run NEW 10mm brass through the .357 Sig die FIRST, then through the 9X25 die. Now, I don't see that little 'ring' around the neck that Dillon talks about in their Die Brochure.

I am beginning to think that the combined seat/crimp operation is not a good idea for a shouldered cartridge. I now get a few wrinkled necks with brass that is slightly long. I probably need to Seat the bullet with no crimp, then crimp separately (Which is what the Dillon dies already do... I just don't have enough stations on my Pro 1000! DOH!)

Hope this helps!
Sponge

bdc 03-20-2004 11:30

Case capacity and bullet length.
 
For those developing 9x25 loads, S'man has posted spreadsheets of data regarding 9x25 case volume as it is affected by bullet lenth.

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=227383

Grip reduction: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthre...2#post13213462

spongeman66 03-20-2004 22:59

I am getting tired of throwing away brass when the primer falls out, so I am working up to what I consider a safe head expansion in MY gun.
There is no factory ammo available for Waters' method pressure workups. So, I used similar head expansion as DoubleTap in my Jarvis 10mm and 1911 10mm. Suprisingly, the average and max head expansion for both of those barrels with DoubleTap is the same...Both my Jarvis and 1911 show max head expansions with DoubleTap as .4290" (My Stock Glock barrels max at .4345 with DoubleTap)
With my Barsto 9X25 barrel, primers start to fall out at .4296+ and bulges start at .4230+...I am shooting for a load that AVERAGES about .4285 and NEVER goes above .4290

Glock 29 3.8" Barsto 9X25 Barrel. Headspace set to -.002" to allow for SOME dirtiness to the barrel.

Winchester formed brass (none of it new)
Rem 2 1/2 primers (Use caution with CCI-350s)
COL 1.285 (The longest that will fit in my Magazines)
Winchester 115 FMJ designed for the 9mm Luger. (Not optimal, but I have Thousands on hand...)
I worked HS-7 up from 11.8. It doesn't burn cleanly at the lower powder charges and I had some difficulty with unburnt powder preventing complete chambering. I had to push the slide forward to get full chambering.
14.9 grains HS-7 Lo=1599 Hi=1652 ES=53 A=1622 SD=20
15.1 grains HS-7 Lo=1614 Hi=1661 ES=47 A=1631 SD=25
15.3 grains HS-7 Lo=1626 Hi=1671 ES=45 A=1640 SD=18

8.8 grains AA#2I Lo=1409 Hi=1443 ES=34 A=1427 SD=11
8.5 grains Universal Clays (Raining the day I shot this, but head expansion max is .4290")

147 Silvertip:
10.0 grains VV n105 Lo=1191 Hi=1219 ES=28 A=1208 SD=11
10.3 grains VV n105 Lo=1220 Hi=1232 ES=12 A=1224 SD=6
10.6 grains VV n105 Lo=1235 Hi=1257 ES=22 A=1249 SD=8

This is the tip of the experiment for N105. Head expansion is nowhere NEAR .4290 This powder has the potential to match 800X. I have seen 800X-like velocities in 10mm.

spongeman66 03-22-2004 10:23

Just for bdc
 
1 Attachment(s)
Internal volumes of 9x25 @ 1.26 COL

bdc 03-25-2004 11:39

Some consensus items from another thread.
 
9X25 Dillon performs better with: Longer barrels, slower powders, heavier bullets.

Grendelbane suggested using small rifle primers for their strength and support over the firing pin hole. This is probably a good idea, working up loads specifically with rifle primers, if your striker system can reliably fire them. It is not a new Idea, I knew competitors shooting 38 Super 30 years ago who where loading Blue Dot with rifle primers.

spongeman66 03-25-2004 14:22

Vampires Beware
 
1 Attachment(s)
147 Winchester Silvertips in R-P formed Nickel Brass.
11.0 grains 800X ignited by Rem 2 1/2 primer.

swampmaster 04-01-2004 03:51

WOW I like the looks of those silvertips Where can I get info on converting a gun to the 9x25 DIllon and dies and such

spongeman66 04-01-2004 06:51

All you need is a barrel change for just about any 10mm chambered gun to shoot 9x25.
There is a Group Purchase going on right now. I don't know how far it has progressed, but you MAY be able to get in on it if you call MCNETT at DoubleTap TODAY! If you miss the GP, then contact Barsto directly, and your barrel will likely only cost about $15-$20 more than the GP price.
Dies are available Directly from Dillon.

Welcome!
Sponge

spongeman66 04-04-2004 21:34

Got some time at the range Saturday.
Same gun, brass, COL, primer as above.

115 FMJ:
PHP Code:

VV N105
wt    LO   HI  ES  Avg SD
13.6 1554 1577 23 1565 10
13.9 1581 1596 15 1586  6

VV 3n38
wt    LO   HI  ES  Avg SD
13.6 1606 1619 13 1614  5 

3X shots each of Winchester 147 Silvertips:
PHP Code:

VV N105
wt    LO   HI  ES  Avg SD
11.5 1344 1349  5 1346  2
11.7 1321 1372 51 1351 26

VV 3n38
wt    LO   HI  ES  Avg SD
10.8 1264 1303 39 1288 21 

Just for fun, and to get a HEAVIER Bullet:
357 Magnum Lead Semi Wadcutter 158 grain
Seated to 1.240" because the design of the bullet required it for my barrel

158 PBSWC:
PHP Code:

HS-7
wt    LO   HI  ES  Avg SD
10.0 1195 1234 39 1212 19
10.6 1267 1294 27 1280 13
10.9 1295 1323 28 1307 10 

I need to revisit 800X and 147 grain bullets. I shot some 147 Gold Dots at 11.0 of 800X. I got good velocities (1449 Average), but the head expansions were more than any of the above loadings.

I have also backed down on my 115 FMJ & AA#2I from 9.0 to 8.8 because 10 rounds of 9.0 yielded one round slightly greater head expansion than I want. (9.0 = 1453 FPS average)

Stay Safe!
Sponge

bdc 04-06-2004 15:02

158gr
 
You must have been reading my mind Sponge! Calculations and projections I have made concerning slow powders and short barrels during the past week indicates that the 158gr bullets are potentially second only to the 147gr overall, with PF numbers favoring the 158gr.

I had actually hoped that the light weight bullets would have been better to continue the bullet weight range compared to the 10mm. Longer barrels are the only way to achieve that.

The disappointment is that 10mm already has bullet weights in the 160gr range that will outperform 9x25 interior ballistics.

spongeman66 04-06-2004 15:26

The increased friction of a longer bullet with more surface area rubbing against the barrel is one factor against smaller diameter bullets when compared to larger diameter bullets of the same weight.

Another thing that works against smaller diameter bullets is the smaller surface area of the base of the bullet. The .400 bullet has a .355 bullet beat by 27% in area of the base. Pressures (Pounds per square inch) being the same between 10mm and 9x25, The 9mm projectile has a significantly smaller area for the force to act upon. Thus, less total force is exerted on the smaller diameter bullet.

The expansion factor of the gasses will be less with smaller diameter bullets causing the possibility of a different pressure curve with a more sustained peak pressure is the one thing that might HELP.

The problem I encountered with the 158 grain bullets was the need to seat them deeper due to the design of the bullet and the design of the throat of my gun. A different bullet design might lend to a longer COL and more powder capacity....

Heck, the main reason I did it was to see if 9x25 really is comparable to .357 Mag. IT IS! I have looked up 158 SWC data on the web. My effective revolver length barrel is about 2.5" (Subtract the COL from 3.8"). The velocity of 1300 FPS with a 158 grain bullet is typically quoted for 4" to 6" long barrels in 357 Magnum!

Sponge

Washington,D.C. 04-06-2004 23:25

Cal 9 x 25 DILLON

Diametro palla = .355" A1) Test su arma = A2) Test su arma =
Max lungh bossolo = 25,20 mm Lunghezza canna test = Lunghezza canna test =
Trimmare il bossolo a = 25,10 mm Passo rigatura = Passo rigatura =
Max lungh cartuccia = 31,80 mm


P a l l a Lungh cart Innesco P o l v e r e - P o w d e r Note
Bullet C.O.L. Primer M i n M a x
Grains Grammi Marca - tipo mm inch Marca e tipo Marca e tipo Grains Grammi Velocitą Pressione Energia Grains Grammi Velocitą Pressione Energia
100 6,48 Fiocchi FMJ TC 31,80 1,252 Fed 215 - LRM ACCURATE N°9 16,2 1,05 16,5 1,07
115 7,45 Winchester FMJ 32,20 1,268 Fed 215 - LRM ACCURATE N°9 14,3 0,93
115 7,45 Winchester FMJ 32,20 1,268 Fed 215 - LRM VIHTAVUORI N 110 15,1 0,98
115 7,45 Winchester FMJ HP 32,20 1,268 Fed 215 - LRM VIHTAVUORI N 110 15,1 0,98
124 8,04 Hornady FMJ FP 32,20 1,268 Fed 215 - LRM VIHTAVUORI N 110 14,2 0,92
124 8,04 Hornady FMJ FP 32,20 1,268 Fed 215 - LRM ACCURATE N°9 12.7 0,03
130 8,42 Hornady FMJ 32,20 1,268 Fed 215 - LRM VIHTAVUORI N 110 13,3 0,86
130 8,42 Hornady FMJ 32,20 1,268 Fed 215 - LRM ACCURATE N°9 11,9 0,77


Data from http://www.bordingl.com/z9x25.htm

spongeman66 04-07-2004 07:34

DC, that data has no velocities. It seems like something that you would print out and take to the range and fill in...

I think N110 is a bit slow for 9x25. I have shot some H110, and it leaves my face gritty due to unburnt powder...AND doesn't produce very good velocities...
AA#9 should be similar to my H108. H108 produces a decent velocity but is also too slow and leaves unburnt powder...
In my opinion, you can't get enough of either powder in a 9x25 cartridge to cause overpressure problems...
Sponge

spongeman66 05-22-2004 22:10

gibrass.com surplus powder
 
Loaded up some 9x25 with the WC820F HS-7 equivalent available from gibrass.com

Well used Winchester formed brass.
3.8" Barsto barrel in a G29
CCI-350 primers
COL 1.285"
~ 87F

All loads below produced at or less than my desired max head expansion. 5 shot groups.

95 FMJ
16.5 Lo=1766 Hi=1785 Es=19 Avg=1775 SD=7

115 FMJ
13.9 Lo=1468 Hi=1523 Es=55 Avg=1489 SD=22
14.2 Lo=1482 Hi=1518 Es=36 Avg=1504 SD=13

147 Gold Dot Hollow Point
12.1 Lo=1170 Hi=1294 Es=124 Avg=1261 SD=52
12.4 Lo=1321 Hi=1343 Es=22 Avg=1332 SD=8

Compare to an 800X workup:
115 FMJ
10.9 Lo=1495 Hi=1589 Es=94 Avg=1531 SD=41
11.3 Lo=1584 Hi=1626 Es=42 Avg=1605 SD=29


WC 820F matched my 800X load for 95 grain bullets, but it seems a touch too fast to produce top velocity in the heavier bullets.
I will try WC 820 PD next...

Stay safe!
Sponge

Seddo 06-24-2004 00:03

has anyone tried to use any winchester powder with a 9x25???

shindawia6 07-05-2004 12:11

anybody use universal powder with 125gr bullets?

spongeman66 07-24-2004 22:54

My spreadsheet predicts somewhere between 7.8 and 8.2 as the absolute max of Universal Clays behind a 125 GDHP. I would start around 7.0 and work up in 0.2 grain increments until my head expansion was where I wanted it...
Universal Clays is a little fast for top performance in bullets heavier than 95 grains. It should prove to be a pretty good plinking powder though...
Stay Safe!
Sponge

Shred 07-27-2004 16:12

Wow.. found this by accident from a Google search. I used to load 9x25 years ago for IPSC. Thus my loads top out around 180 PF and are from a 5" barreled STI.

115 JHP 16.1gr H108 ~1550 fps
124 Hornady JFP 15.1gr H108 went about 1460
124 JFP 9gr N105 - 934 fps. 11gr 1431 fps. 12.2gr 1580fps

I have some others using ~17gr H110 & 115's somewhere-- cases came out so clean they looked new.

Rumor has it Rob Leatham and Arnt Myhre at Dillon got some light .380 bullets up to 2000+fps, but accuracy was abysmal. Any better luck recently?

spongeman66 02-16-2005 22:48

I gave up on WC820F from GIBRASS.com. I can't get it to burn clean enough, even with HOT Federal 155M primers...I wind up having to push the slide forward after about 8 rounds...WHAT am I going to do with 8lbs of this stuff??? Maybe I will work up a heavy field 12 gauge or 20 gauge load....

Did another Workup today with 95FMJ and VV 3N38. WOW!! This is an impressive powder with bullets lighter than 125 grains. 3N38 burns clean, and I didn't have any light strikes or slide not closing all the way.

52F
9x25, 95 FMJ, Remington 2 1/2 primers, COL 1.280", well used Winchester brass.
Velocities measured at 10 feet from muzzle of G29 with 3.8" barrel.

3N38 5 shot Average
14.0 1651 FPS
14.5 1690 FPS
15.0 1770 FPS
15.4 1809 FPS -> This load had less than my max expansion, but it is a cool day for TX, and I think my hot weather max is somewhere around 15.0-15.2.

Cases started to stick at 16.4...

This thread has been dead for a while...Anybody else doing load work ups???

Have fun!
Sponge

Seddo 02-17-2005 21:59

spongeman66,
i built a 1911 instead of a glock. i have started but the powder i am using are made by ADI, most of them are sold in USA under different brands.

A friend has a glock and he has started loading 135-145gr projies. he is using a powder that is out of production by he has a lot left so this might not help you.

he also mentioned to me that the double tap brass had a 10% fail rate, in that the case cracked, compared to reformed winchester and pmc 10mm cases.

what brass are you using??

spongeman66 02-18-2005 08:34

You are welcome to post your ADI 9x25 workups here! It would be interesting if you know the comparable powder in the US...

I use Winchester (Non-Nickel) Brass. I have had similar (split neck) failure rates with Remington Nickel Plated brass. I think the Nickel Plated stuff is strong, but too brittle to handle the re-forming for very many loading cycles. The Dillon dies are for forming, and really work the brass hard.
With Winchester brass, it takes several loadings to see head separation, or loose primers.
I would like to find some 10mm brass with SMALL primer pockets to see if my loose primer problem goes away...

I have a different purpose for 9x25 than some others. I shoot mine exclusively from my 3.8" G29 barrel. Concealed carry + velocity is what I seek...
If I were playing with 135+ grain bullets, I would stick with regular 10mm. I can actually get better velocity in similar bullet weights in 10mm compared to 9x25.

Good luck!
Sponge

Seddo 02-20-2005 15:23

my purpose is a IPSC Open Gun. it is a 130mm barrel with 4 port comp. i had only started and realised the chamber was cut .003-.008 short, i was having trouble chambering rounds. i have to wait a few weeks for the gunsmith to get back from holidays as he is the only person in australia with a 9x25 reamer.

i have used 98gr coated lead with 2400, even found some 90gr FMJ's to play with. i will have to settle with 122gr coated lead or 124gr copper wash projies. when i get my gun back i will post all of my loads.

ADI equivalent powder is:
http://www.adi-limited.com/handloade...quivalents.asp

the reason my friend is using heavy projies is because we cant have calibres over 38 in australia.

spongeman66 04-08-2005 00:17

Happy LEE customer and Lyman M-Dies Save the day!
 
If you reload 9x25 on 100% Dillon equipment, then I suppose this won't be of interest to you...

I quit using the 357 Sig die to pre-form my new 9x25 brass. I wasn't using any lube with this steel die, so it got scratched up. I also broke off (like head separation) a well used piece of brass in it, and sent it back to LEE to have them remove it. (BTW, I only sent them the sizer die, and they sent me back an ENTIRE set of 357 Sig Dies FREE...)

In the same order from Lee, I paid for a 9mm Factory crimp die SLEEVE. I put it in the 10mm FCD body, and it gives a good crimp that is MUCH easier to adjust than the Dillon Crimp die...This works very well, but, like the Dillon Crimp die, will buckle the case if too much crimp is applied. Pat Lee told me for short necked calibers they had a NEW way of doing the FCD more like the rifle calibers. I considered a custom one made, but decided to try the 9mm sleeve in the 10mm body first. Using the Dillon Sizer, I recognized that It doesn't size all the way down the brass, and I figured I might want to keep the 10mm Lee FCD to iron out any bulging in previously fired brass. I don't think the rifle-like FCD will do this...

I had a discussion with Pat Lee about how the Dillon Sizing/Forming Die narrows the neck too much, and the Lee 9mm expander has too short of a bearing surface. It was causing my 95 grain bullets to seat crooked and not be chamberable about 90% of the time. When I sent the sizer back, I included the 357 Sig expander and about 10 pieces of newly formed brass. They sent me back a 38 S & W Special expander that was longer and had been turned down to be appropriate for .355 bullets. (For FREE!) This new expander got me up to about a 90% success rate, but still about 1 in 10 NEW pieces of brass wouldn't chamber.

At this point, I considered selling my 9x25 stuff...NAH...

I was placing an order from Midway, so I included the Lyman M-Die for 9mm in the order. I had a 45ACP Lyman M-die body around, so I figured if the die body was too narrow, I could put the 9mm pilot in the 45 body and be OK. This was NOT necessary. The 9mm Lyman M-die body easily accepted the 10mm cartridge.

The long bearing surface of the Lyman M-Die pilot was EXACTLY what I needed!!! I am now up to 100% success with NEW brass!!! (Fired brass was never a problem...It was always newly formed brass that gave me trouble.)

The 5 station tool head for my LoadMaster has all 5 stations full, and has dies from 3 companies!
1st Station -> Dillon 9x25 sizing/forming die
2nd station -> Lyman M-die
3rd station -> Lee 357 Sig expander/powder die with 38 S & W custom expander
4th station -> Lee Unmodified bullet seating die set to provide NO crimp
5th station -> 10mm FCD body with 9mm FCD Sleeve.

Turns out 100% chamberable rounds with new brass!!! I am starting to feel like a Wildcat developer...

Hope this might help someone!
Sponge


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