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-   -   Another take on Sheepdogs (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1519472)

deepstare 02-12-2014 18:16

Another take on Sheepdogs
 
I posted this earlier in a rather heated thread but I found that it's resonated with other members and I felt like putting it up.


Now, other well known bloggers such as nutnfancy take an entirely different tack on this subject, which, while I must say is commendable, is again probably not realistic.

drewcog 02-12-2014 21:20

Sounds like a very reasonable and prudent approach to CCW. What would the counter-argument be?

xmanhockey7 02-12-2014 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewcog (Post 21006770)
Sounds like a very reasonable and prudent approach to CCW. What would the counter-argument be?




drewcog 02-12-2014 21:31

X-man: Thanks for the videos. At 37 minutes, I'll have to watch tomorrow. Thanks again.

xmanhockey7 02-12-2014 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewcog (Post 21006800)
X-man: Thanks for the videos. At 37 minutes, I'll have to watch tomorrow. Thanks again.

No problem. Nutnfancy makes good videos. I don't agree with everything he says in his videos, but they're still good quality.

deepstare 02-12-2014 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 (Post 21006807)
No problem. Nutnfancy makes good videos. I don't agree with everything he says in his videos, but they're still good quality.

I don't agree with most of what he says but that doesn't mean I don't respect his dedication to trying to protect our 2nd amendment rights.

I always find some useful bit of info in his gear reviews.

Although, his video about taking a G20 into bear country was not only foolish and naive but downright dangerous considering how many people take his opinion as gospel.

deepstare 02-12-2014 22:05

Lol, well I shoulda expected Yeager to pop up.

Well, next time I'm out walking with my 6 year old son, I'll just leave him right there when I hear gunfire and run straight into the action.

Is it just me or did he seem like he was tweaking?

ChiefWPD 02-13-2014 00:41

Very well thought out video by the "I'm not a sheepdog" speaker.

steve1988 02-13-2014 00:52

I am not a cop. I am not Rambo. I am a POG who occasionally is legally allowed to carry a handgun (MD is run by communists). I will look after my family first, then a select group of friends, then myself, then others.

Angry Fist 02-13-2014 01:10

No, God, I am not my brother's keeper. Now go make me a sammich.

- Cain

drewcog 02-13-2014 06:25

The non-sheepdog guy clearly values sacrifice and service to his fellow man, as he served our country faithfully in the military. I think his approach to CCW is wise and rational and does not mean he is heartless towards others in their times of need. I have no doubt if he was confronted with a violent scenario that he would do what he could to protect himself and those immediately around him. I think his point is he is not going to enter a shooting scene to assist that does not present itself in his immediate vicinity. An example would be a mall shooting. The sheepdog concept seems to advocate the average armed citizen going towards the scene, even when its not in their immediate vicinity. And the non-sheepdog approach would be to usher your family to safety and not go towards the scene. I would take the latter approach primarily because while I want to help my fellow man, I am also called to protect my family. And I also imagine to the responding officers that a shooting scene now complicated by multiple non-uniformed citizen "sheepdogs" would extremely dangerous and confusing to all involved.

happyguy 02-13-2014 06:45

Without even watching the video's I gotta go with the bald guy.

Bald guys are badasses.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

eaglefrq 02-13-2014 09:07

James Yeager calling someone a coward?!? Pot meet Kettle.

happyguy 02-13-2014 09:17

Since I live in a shall issue State I decided a while back that I am willing to defend people who through no fault of their own are unable to. That would be children, the disabled, and the elderly.

Grown adults who decide to be willing victims are on their own.

I am comfortable with that decision and don't need to watch a video to confirm it.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

thetoastmaster 02-13-2014 17:19

Proudly NOT a sheepdog
 
I have thought long and hard on this topic. I've long stated here on GT that I am most emphatically not a sheepdog. I've had to defend that position here and on some other internet fora. There are a few reasons for my decision. This video sums up many of them. I am also not anxious to "jump into another man's shoes" when I know that I won't receive any protection, indemnity, or compensation from the people that I'd be saving. State actors have qualified immunity that protects them from a degree of liability. Non-State actors have nothing but "reasonable man" doctrine (which, in my opinion, becomes less reasonable every day). Similarly, who will take care of my wife and children should I die in a violent altercation? Will the people I might have saved take up a collection to start annuities so my kids can go to college, like they do for cops killed in shootouts? No, they won't. No one will care.

I've never been a fan of Grossman. To me his writing always smacked of elitism. "Let US protect you, citizen. We know you haven't the capacity to protect yourself". That kind of attitude breeds dependence; and to me that's not what America's about. We're for individuality, not for a modern-day caste system, as Grossman seems to suggest.

Finally, let me give my impression of Grossman's analogy: Sheep and sheepdogs both fleece the sheep. It doesn't matter which one does it, the sheep get shorn. Well screw that. I am not about getting fleeced. I'd rather we adopt Greg Hamilton's take on this:

Quote:

Sheep can be controlled by the sheepdog for the same reason they fear the wolf - they are both predators. The same relationships hold with the general population, the police, and the criminals. Most people are sheep, but you don't have to be. If you have the skills and attitude of a predator the criminals will leave you alone- because they will recognize you as a predator and there is easier game available.

deepstare 02-13-2014 21:02

This is a rather simplistic breakdown but from a legal stand point it's relevant.

#8 and #4 seems rather obvious

http://lawofselfdefense.com/wp-conte...Themselves.pdf

FireForged 02-13-2014 21:26

I will not chase a purse snatcher, stand between (2) fighting men or investigate odd happenings in dark alleys.. I carry a gun to protect myself and my family, not to be anyone's sentinel or security force.

I would gladly leap in front of a moving bus to save a child in the street but pulling a weapon in pubic to involve myself in someone elses troubles is not something I plan to do.

Society has created an environment where no matter if I am right and well intentioned, gun play in public can cost me my livelihood. I am willing to accept that circumstance if defending myself or my family but I am not so willing to accept it for someone who I "think" is victim involved in a situation that I "think" I understand and "seems" to have placed them in peril and where I "may" have identified the badguy.

xmanhockey7 02-13-2014 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepstare (Post 21009252)
This is a rather simplistic breakdown but from a legal stand point it's relevant.

#8 and #4 seems rather obvious

http://lawofselfdefense.com/wp-conte...Themselves.pdf

Seemed good, but this part of number 1 I don't totally agree with:
Quote:

1. What weapons you're allowed to have and where. Even if youhave a conceal permit you may not carry just any gun. If you're unsure what your state allows you to have on you to protect yourself, your local law enforcement is a great place to start.
While there are many LEO's who know the laws well there are also many who don't. While they not be a horrible place to start, I think looking up statues and a site like handgunlaw.us is far better.

deepstare 02-13-2014 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 (Post 21009321)
Seemed good, but this part of number 1 I don't totally agree with:

While there are many LEO's who know the laws well there are also many who don't. While they not be a horrible place to start, I think looking up statues and a site like handgunlaw.us is far better.

Yes, I agree it's always better to look at multiple sources for keeping up to date on ccw rights (how many of us have stopped in to speak to our local sheriffs)?

But consider the source...


Andrew F. Branca, Esq., is the foremost expert in U.S. self defense law across all 50 states, whose expertise has been used by the the Wall Street Journal, the Chicago Tribune, NPR, numerous other media organizations, as well as many private, state and federal agencies. He is a Massachusetts lawyer, Life Member of the National Rifle Association (NRA), and Adjunct Instructor on the Law of Self Defense at the SigSauer Academy in Epping, NH. He regularly lectures and speaks throughout the country on how to protect yourself against both an attack and the legal machine after.

Andrew is a multi-division Master-class competitor in IDPA and an NRA-certified firearms instructor. He holds or has held concealed carry permits for Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Maine, Pennsylvania, Florida, Utah, Virginia, and other states.

John Biltz 02-13-2014 21:57

I've always thought the sheepdog and sheep concept to be pretty egotistical for civilians. When I was in the military I was a sheepdog. Cops are sheepdogs. Look at the job descriptions and yep there you are. I think most people who think they are sheepdogs are like some dog that starts running around a herd of sheep and has pretensions until the herd's sheepdog shows up and gets chased away. And that is the reality, there are sheep, wolves, sheepdogs and dogs and not every dog is a sheepdog. And not every dog even has any idea what it is to be a sheepdog. So when someone who has never been a cop or a soldier claims to be a sheepdog...


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