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-   -   Disappointment: G20sf (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1504332)

TexAg 09-25-2013 20:38

Disappointment: G20sf
 
Big disappointment at the range today.
A little history: The last time out, I shot my new, stock G20sf. I had some PPU ammo because it was the cheapest and I thought I'd just get the feel of the gun a little. I had one light misfire out of 50 rounds which was disappointing. It looked like a light strike. I chambered it again and it shot fine. I also had one round not fully chamber and had to nudge the slide forward. Possibly the same issue?
When home I checked to see if when holding the trigger and riding the slide forward it would hang the slide up a bit. It did, but only once. I have not been able to get it to do it again.
I ordered some PBR 200gr XTP hoping some good, hot ammo would make it this gun sing a bit better. Boy I was wrong. Constant FTF. Two handed, locked up as best I could, one handed, off a rest, all still got missfeeds. I got one nosing to the left of the chamber, but most were just about half chambered. I could slightly pull the slide back and it would then slide forward and chamber it.
I examined the firing pin channel after the first trip and everything looked good. I suppose it's possible I'm limp wristing, but I've never had that problem before, but this is my first 10mm.
The PBR ejected reealllly far and the PPU was just a few feet away. No ejection issues at all.
I have a literally flawless G17, so this is a huge disappointment. I can't trust the gun whether it's me or not. I'll try to get someone else to shoot it, but either way I'm not sure I could trust it. I've shot lots of hot .45 Colt and .357, (my p3at is one of the harsher recoilers) and I'm not recoil shy.
So, I'm tempted already just to trade it off and leave my revolvers as my hiking guns.
My g17 sure felt like a pea shooter after the 200 grain 10s, and it was of course flawless.
So, a couple issues when shooting the PPU and then several issues wile shooting the PBR. Ideas, advice?
Much appreciated.

Taterhead 09-25-2013 20:45

Weird. My G20 is extremely reliable.

Have you directed your questions to Glock? Something doesn't sound right.

Low-earth orbit for ejected brass from medium to warm ammo is normal.

ctious 09-25-2013 21:56

Look at the extractor. Is the cut clean on it? Kinda sounds like u are having it hang up while sliding under the extractor.

s0nspark 09-26-2013 07:10

Just my observations but...

First, the PPU is certainly weak ammo by 10mm standards so the FTF might be a result of that.

Second, my experience is that the 200gr and up loads work best with aftermarket recoil springs. You might try something in the 165gr/180gr range from Underwood or PBR and see how that does.

TexAg 09-26-2013 10:56

The extractor looks ok to me. I will likely call Glock. It's my understanding that the weak-ish stock recoil spring should enable the gun to feed the PPU just fine. If it won't shoot weak or stout then it's far too picky for me to own.

Trapped_in_Kali 09-26-2013 15:51

My Gen 3 G20 will take anything from anemic range reloads to Underwood 200g FMJ 100% stock, it isn't the ammo. It has to be a bad part, call Glock.

Stkx66 09-26-2013 16:36

I had some feed problems with my G20sf and someone posted this video as a possibility and sure enough my G20sf needed a new recoil spring. Secondly, I may have stretched the feed lips on my magazines from storing at full capacity also possibly causing a feed issue. I replaced my recoil spring and magazines and has been fine since. Just a couple of ideas to explore-

TexAg 09-26-2013 18:56

Interesting. I'd performed the test except I had the pistol pointed horizontally or down, but with it pointed up it failed to close. Rediculously weak spring from the factory? I guess so. Guess I'll go with the Wolff springs earlier than I expected. 22lbs?

Taterhead 09-26-2013 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexAg (Post 20648756)
Interesting. I'd performed the test except I had the pistol pointed horizontally or down, but with it pointed up it failed to close. Rediculously weak spring from the factory? I guess so. Guess I'll go with the Wolff springs earlier than I expected. 22lbs?

There are two times my G20 is not 100%. One is with a 22# spring and heavy/hot ammo. I also have a mag that gives a misfeed about 1 out of every 200 rounds. Otherwise it is virtually flawless. I'd first get a stock recoil spring assembly - or follow Glock's lead.

I'd look to getting the stock setup ironed out first. It should work reliably right out of the box. You might or might not later decide to go aftermarket with things, but the gun should run right without swapping parts.

4949shooter 09-26-2013 19:15

We had a member here (3/4flap) who had trouble with his G20 SF as well. He indicated in one of his posts that the rounds were feeding off to the left, much like yours seems to be. You might have a lemon. I would contact Glock as suggested. They probably won't give you a replacement gun right away but you could at least start the process if they can't get your issues ironed out.

Andrew Tacquard 09-26-2013 20:02

I'd try glock, sounds like something is wrong. I run different springs now, but never had an issue with the stock spring with heavy or light loads.

bac1023 09-26-2013 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexAg (Post 20646565)
Big disappointment at the range today.
A little history: The last time out, I shot my new, stock G20sf. I had some PPU ammo because it was the cheapest and I thought I'd just get the feel of the gun a little. I had one light misfire out of 50 rounds which was disappointing. It looked like a light strike. I chambered it again and it shot fine. I also had one round not fully chamber and had to nudge the slide forward. Possibly the same issue?
When home I checked to see if when holding the trigger and riding the slide forward it would hang the slide up a bit. It did, but only once. I have not been able to get it to do it again.
I ordered some PBR 200gr XTP hoping some good, hot ammo would make it this gun sing a bit better. Boy I was wrong. Constant FTF. Two handed, locked up as best I could, one handed, off a rest, all still got missfeeds. I got one nosing to the left of the chamber, but most were just about half chambered. I could slightly pull the slide back and it would then slide forward and chamber it.
I examined the firing pin channel after the first trip and everything looked good. I suppose it's possible I'm limp wristing, but I've never had that problem before, but this is my first 10mm.
The PBR ejected reealllly far and the PPU was just a few feet away. No ejection issues at all.
I have a literally flawless G17, so this is a huge disappointment. I can't trust the gun whether it's me or not. I'll try to get someone else to shoot it, but either way I'm not sure I could trust it. I've shot lots of hot .45 Colt and .357, (my p3at is one of the harsher recoilers) and I'm not recoil shy.
So, I'm tempted already just to trade it off and leave my revolvers as my hiking guns.
My g17 sure felt like a pea shooter after the 200 grain 10s, and it was of course flawless.
So, a couple issues when shooting the PPU and then several issues wile shooting the PBR. Ideas, advice?
Much appreciated.

Sorry to hear

Mine runs great...

VN350X10 09-26-2013 20:22

I read a lot of folks swapping out parts to get their Glocks to "work better"....
My G20 has worked correctly since about 1997, with the only change made being a custom fabricated (by me ) slide release, to make it easier with my small hands.
It has well over 20K rounds thru it, and it has malfunctioned 1 (ONE) time. My fault, I was shooting IDPA and was running a "gamer" load in it. So light, that it shot fine from the bench, but wouldn't function while firing while walking backwards.
NOT THE GUN'S FAULT !
I have worked in gunshops since 1996, and the majority of Glock malfunctions are caused by 2 common items :
1) Aftermarket springs & guide rods.

2) Improper (OVER) lubrication.

#3) on the list is crappy reloads.
The vast majority of guns work right out of the box, as shipped !
What is needed, is to shoot 500 rounds without cleaning, without stripping the gun down, and above all, LEAVE THE COPPER COLORED ANTI-SIEZE IN PLACE.
Don't clean & improve. Run a Bore-Snake thru the tube & SHOOT THE GUN.
What I've seen on average is that the MORE a Glock is modified, the LESS RELIABLE it becomes. Do you really think that the aftermarket mfgr's. know more about the pistol than the people who have built MILLIONS of them ?
I reallise that full power 10MM ammo is as scarce as a Dodo bird, but there are some loads out there that will run almost every 10MM known. Try the CCI Blazer 200 gr fmj aluminum case in a stock gun. It will run. This is the ammo that I always use for GSSF events because they are "lost brass" matches, and I have NEVER had a malfunction with it. I've shot it in my S&W 1006 & 1076, I've run it thru 1911's in 10MM, and it works in every pistol I've tried it in. I've even seen a gent using it in his Bren 10, and guess what, it works.
If all else fails, read the owners manual !
Don't go "improving" your firearm to the whims of some internet commando.

And yes, I HAVE built modified Glocks, shooting USPSA with a custom built G34.
Open division, Major 9mm, 2 1/4# trigger pull that hasen't changed in over 5K rounds, custom fabricated optic mount (nothing against Bobby Carver, I just had a different idea) and a self designed/built comp.
Now if I could just shoot as good as the gun can, I'd be fine ! Oh yeah, we get 34 rounds in the 170mm magazine, custom built follower. And the Glock works just FINE, no "jam&slam" like the .38 super crowd.

uncle albert

s0nspark 09-27-2013 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by VN350X10 (Post 20649045)
What I've seen on average is that the MORE a Glock is modified, the LESS RELIABLE it becomes. Do you really think that the aftermarket mfgr's. know more about the pistol than the people who have built MILLIONS of them?

I totally agree with the sentiment here but just want to point out that if you want to shoot high power 10mm loads that does change things a bit... Glock does not recommend high power loads and so does not design for their use. Tweaking the recoil spring weight can sometimes be beneficial in this case...

Overall, though, you are exactly right. I used to experiment with aftermarket internals (as a learning experiment mostly) and discovered quickly that these guns run best with stock internals. The only changes I make these days are those that affect ergos: Vickers extended slide stop, Grip Force adapter, Pearce grip extensions on my G29 and of course aftermarket sights :supergrin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by VN350X10 (Post 20649045)
Try the CCI Blazer 200 gr fmj aluminum case in a stock gun. It will run. This is the ammo that I always use for GSSF events because they are "lost brass" matches, and I have NEVER had a malfunction with it.

Cool - thanks for the tip! :wavey:

Taterhead 09-27-2013 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by s0nspark (Post 20649637)

Glock does not recommend high power loads and so does not design for their use.


Reference?

VN350X10 09-27-2013 21:11

I've still got some old Norma, and both my G20 & G29 love it !
If that's not hot ammo, NOTHING is !
Glocks will run on ammo that will take a 1911 in 10MM apart.
1911's aren't designed for more than about 21K psi.
The old Norma stuff was in the 40K psi ballpark !
1911's in 10MM are the primary reason that SAAMI lowered the pressures. Spec used to be around 44K psi average, like the true .357, .41 & .44 Magnums used to be.
And as a personal note, Glocks are happiest with higher end loads. They tend to be more accurate with hotter ammo.

uncle albert

s0nspark 09-29-2013 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taterhead (Post 20651093)
Reference?

Nothing officially in print - just comments others have made here after contacting Glock support...

vaquero aleman 09-29-2013 20:25

Stronger or doubled mag springs will help with ftf's.

orangeride 09-29-2013 21:47

I'd be willing to bet it's something really simple. Between myself and my brothers we've got 6-7 newish 20sfs between us. All have flawless except the latest one I bought about 6 months ago. It was having a failure to feed about one in 20-30 shots. Luckily I've got a box full of spare parts. To make a long story short it ended up being an out of spec ejector. It was clipping the back end of the shell causing a jam to the left. First I'd try a fresh oem RSA. Next an ejector. If that's not it try a trigger bar. It could be out of spec causing the slide to drag going into battery. Good luck. Don't give up.

TexAg 10-01-2013 09:55

Called Glock and they offered to take it and look it over, but then I told him about the slide not closing on a pulled trigger and he said, "sir, I can take any Glock here and manipulate the slide so it won't close, but I can send you a recoil spring to see if that fixes your problem."
Glad they're sending a recoil spring, we'll see how that goes.


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