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-   -   Is The Crucifixion Overrated? (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1487484)

The Oracle 05-18-2013 00:27

Is The Crucifixion Overrated?
 
In the thread questioning whether God/Jesus were Creative failures another GT'er questioned me when I stated that many cycles of re-creating humanity (Adam-Eve/ Cain-Abel/ Noah -The Flood, etc.) seemed to occur at the expense of the relatively innocent, already created human beings,

The response cited scriptures related to The Crucifixion and made me think of the following;


-----

Not sure why you are citing the scriptures regarding the crucifixion of Jesus.

Most Christians cite it to show an example of great sacrifice.

However, when viewed objectively, it is not all that it is cracked up to be.

First and foremost, it is not as if the Romans or Judas, or Christ, had a choice, (…well, I presume, that as Creator, and as the wonderful old hymn says, He could have called 10,000 angels and backed out at the last minute, but...) it was Christ's destiny in the world He created that brought about His Crucifixion. It was foretold and prophesied since the Old Testament that somebody ( some marionette ) out of the world of human beings was doomed to be the one to betray Christ. Somebody had to betray Christ and then somebody had to kill him. Certainly when considering a situation that is foretold as one that must come to pass in order to usher in a new beginning, there was little to no free will involved in the decisions of the people playing the parts of betrayers. In the case of poor Judas, Christ's foretelling of this destiny even narrowed it down to 1 out of 12 that would betray Him. ...sickening to contemplate how bad Judas felt after betraying not only his good friend, but the nicest person on the planet. Especially if Judas was just a pawn playing a role that some poor sap unlucky enough to be alive at the time of Christ had to do.

The trouble with most Christians is they are too intellectually dishonest to connect the dots between an omniscient and omnipotent Creator that can foresee the future He has created, and the lack of true freewill for the created beings within such a construct.

Secondly, as absolutely horrific as it is, the actual physical pain that is capable of being suffered by a human being nailed to a stick for one day is nowhere near the levels of pain that are endured by vast numbers of modern human beings EVERY DAY, AT ANY GIVEN TIME, somewhere on this planet.

Thirdly, all of the physical pain and emotional (“Father why have you forsaken me”) turmoil was (relatively speaking) easily overcome by the simple fact that Christ knew who he was, and the reason for His sacrifice. Specifically, Christ knew He was immortal, and knew He would go to Heaven when He died and be a king of the Universe forever.
Furthermore, with Christ knowing the reason for His sacrifice, we now have to consider the aspect of Christianity (applicable to all) that a noble purpose often goes a long way in assuaging the pain of torture and death, especially if it is the MOST noble purpose ever. This stands in stark contrast when compared to the millions that have died horrible deaths relatively in vain, … Christ knew why He was being nailed to a stick, he knew it was worth it, …and He knew he would rise again.
Despite pious thinking, no other human being has been given the luxury of knowing some wonderful thing is going to happen to them after they die, and that they are dying for the greatest cause for which one has ever died, …let alone knowing they are the Alpha and Omega.

In conclusion, how does such a relatively small sacrifice rise to such elevated heights, let alone absolve mankind of all wrongdoing.
…and if Jesus created everything, including and especially our propensity for sin, …isn’t forgiveness something that is owed to us?


What do you think?



Ronny 05-18-2013 00:51

No, crucifixion is not over rated. It's a theme in a lot of pre and post Christian religions as well. The Babylonian Goddess Ishtar traveled into the underworld, got pierced in the side and was risen long before Jesus. It's a very important theme. To overcome death is something a lot of heroes and deities do in their maturation process. To say crucifixion is overrated is like saying that a caterpillar's cocoon stage is overrated. That idea being absurd of course because it's the process of becoming a butterfly.

Vic Hays 05-18-2013 06:21

Christ didn't have to allow himself to be crucified. He did it because He had faith in the will of the Father.

Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Japle 05-18-2013 09:57

It seems that calling it “a relatively small sacrifice” is giving it too much significance. It was no real “sacrifice” at all.

What did Jesus lose? A human life, most of which was pretty unremarkable, to judge by the record.

What did Jesus gain? A continuation of his eternal life, in exceptionally fine surroundings, with all the power anyone could hope for. Well, he doesn’t have much power over fallen angels, but still, it’s an awfully good gig.

steveksux 05-18-2013 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japle (Post 20301615)
It seems that calling it “a relatively small sacrifice” is giving it too much significance. It was no real “sacrifice” at all.

What did Jesus lose? A human life, most of which was pretty unremarkable, to judge by the record.

The crucifixion was just a fender bender, no real sacrifice at all. A few days in the shop and he was back on the road according to his followers. Its only a big sacrifice if you can't raise yourself from the dead. Can't have it both ways. The story makes no sense.

Randy

Ronny 05-18-2013 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveksux (Post 20301630)
The crucifixion was just a fender bender, no real sacrifice at all. A few days in the shop and he was back on the road according to his followers. Its only a big sacrifice if you can't raise yourself from the dead. Can't have it both ways. The story makes no sense.

Randy

When I heard the story in boyhood I thought Judas was the hero of the story. For by betraying Jesus and ensuring that mankind would have its sacrifice he himself sacrificed his own soul in hell. Or so the story goes.

Vic Hays 05-18-2013 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japle (Post 20301615)
It seems that calling it “a relatively small sacrifice” is giving it too much significance. It was no real “sacrifice” at all.

What did Jesus lose? A human life, most of which was pretty unremarkable, to judge by the record.

What did Jesus gain? A continuation of his eternal life, in exceptionally fine surroundings, with all the power anyone could hope for. Well, he doesn’t have much power over fallen angels, but still, it’s an awfully good gig.

What do you have to lose? Nothing of any significance, just your human life.

What do you have to gain? His eternal life, an awfully good exchange!

Guss 05-18-2013 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic Hays (Post 20301263)
Christ didn't have to allow himself to be crucified. He did it because He had faith in the will of the Father.
...

I always find it odd that Christians refer to their religion as monotheistic when they seem to have multiple independent entities as gods.

steveksux 05-18-2013 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronny (Post 20301676)
When I heard the story in boyhood I thought Judas was the hero of the story. For by betraying Jesus and ensuring that mankind would have its sacrifice he himself sacrificed his own soul in hell. Or so the story goes.

Good point. Never understood all the emnity toward Jews for all those years, supposedly for "killing Jesus", when killing Jesus gave Christians the keys to Heaven. They ought to be thanking them. I thought you were supposed to follow God's plan?

Randy

Zeebra724 05-18-2013 13:51

No. The only way The Crucifixion is overrated is if you fail to mention Jesus Christ's Resurrection along with it. Because, if His Resurrection from the dead never happened, to paraphrase the Apostle Paul, Jesus would only be able to help us in this earthly life and not the next, which would be a completely miserable and worthless reality (1 Corinthians 15:19) on the part of Christians and especially on the ministry of Jesus Christ.

cesaros 05-18-2013 13:56

The entire christian faith is wrapped around the crucifixion. Without it, the idea of accepting Christ as your savior because he died on the cross and made the ultimate sacrifice for you, would never be able to exist.

So how could it be "over rated" when everything in the christian faith revolves around it?

But I digress...another thread in the religious section worthy of a chuckle...google could answers so many of your questions better than GT can.

steveksux 05-18-2013 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by cesaros (Post 20302010)
The entire christian faith is wrapped around the crucifixion. Without it, the idea of accepting Christ as your savior because he died on the cross and made the ultimate sacrifice for you, would never be able to exist.

So how could it be "over rated" when everything in the christian faith revolves around it?

But I digress...another thread in the religious section worthy of a chuckle...google could answers so many of your questions better than GT can.

If you know you will raise from the dead, it's hardly an "ultimate sacrifice", now is it? It's not like someone actually jumping on a grenade to save their squad, knowing they'll be killed like, permanently. They are making the ultimate sacrifice.

The Crucifiction was more like stepping in front of a hard hit ground ball because you know your shortstop forgot to wear his cup.

Randy

wingryder 05-18-2013 14:26

Since an immortal being cant be killed, the crucifixion is meaningless. Not a sacrafice at all.

brokenprism 05-18-2013 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by cesaros (Post 20302010)
Google could answers so many of your questions better than GT can.

Most visitors don't come here for information (good thing, too!). Some come to make sure no orthodox Christian truth claim goes unchallenged. It's a way to kill time, and advocate for the superiority of Enlightenment world views.

OP, how can you ask about the significance of the crucifixion when Paul summed up his life's focus by saying that he was "determined to know nothing among [them] except Christ, and Him crucified." ? It is indeed central to the gospel and, as someone else said, would be an incomplete work were it not for the resurrection. The crucifixion pays the debt incurred by the fall on behalf of the elect -- but it doesn't, in and of itself, restore the debtor.

FCoulter 05-18-2013 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingryder (Post 20302056)
Since an immortal being cant be killed, the crucifixion is meaningless. Not a sacrafice at all.

Sorry that is a retarded answer.

steveksux 05-18-2013 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter (Post 20302109)
Sorry that is a retarded answer.

The truth is the truth. Or you don't believe in the Resurrection?

He's not the one that follows a religion based on that retarded concept.

The Ultimate Sacrifice, he died for our sins?

Wait, he's alive! Its only a flesh wound!!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2YpMaxH78Z...ack+Knight.jpg

Randy

Vic Hays 05-18-2013 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guss (Post 20301848)
I always find it odd that Christians refer to their religion as monotheistic when they seem to have multiple independent entities as gods.

God could not die as God. He took flesh upon Him. According to the Bible He took upon him the form of a servant.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

wingryder 05-19-2013 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter (Post 20302109)
Sorry that is a retarded answer.

It's an absurd concept, which only deserves a retarded answer.

FCoulter 05-19-2013 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingryder (Post 20304124)
It's an absurd concept, which only deserves a retarded answer.

You comment on topic you have never studied if you have you failed. Christ when born became 100% human. When he died he died 100% human, an remained that way for 3 days and 3 nights.

Why do you guys even bother acting like you have all the answers to a text book you cant comprehend?

wingryder 05-19-2013 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by FCoulter (Post 20304141)
You comment on topic you have never studied if you have you failed. Christ when born became 100% human. When he died he died 100% human, an remained that way for 3 days and 3 nights.

Why do you guys even bother acting like you have all the answers to a text book you cant comprehend?

What's so difficult to comprehend? Jesus allegedly was born to a virgin impregnated by god... He is god, no wait, the son of god, but he is the same person as god (so as to avoid polytheism). He was immortal, no wait, mortal so he could be sacrificed, THEN come back to life... :yawn:

Sounds like textbook mythology to me...


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